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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Negative mass Reply with quote

I'm wondering how this can be made into a tractor beam
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 16:36 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam Aarons will help.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaNsA wrote:
Adam Aarons will help.

Rainpal doesn't have a laser.

3... 2...
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

really interesting
raises a lot of points like does it have negative energy (E=MC2)
C2 is a constant (for now) so if Mass is negative then Energy would need to be negative Shocked
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
really interesting
raises a lot of points like does it have negative energy (E=MC2)
C2 is a constant (for now) so if Mass is negative then Energy would need to be negative Shocked


Two negatives multiplied gives a positive. Or is that two wrongs make a right?
Negative mass x negative c = positive energy.

For the negative mass equation, you might try to use negative c to give positive energy, or positive c to give negative energy.

But as c is squared, it should always end up positive; does that mean negative energy is dark energy?

Resurrect me when they make a real hoverboard out of it. Cool
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think adam aaronz regards BCf as a negative mass
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 19 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
oldpink wrote:
really interesting
raises a lot of points like does it have negative energy (E=MC2)
C2 is a constant (for now) so if Mass is negative then Energy would need to be negative Shocked


Two negatives multiplied gives a positive. Or is that two wrongs make a right?
Negative mass x negative c = positive energy.

For the negative mass equation, you might try to use negative c to give positive energy, or positive c to give negative energy.

But as c is squared, it should always end up positive; does that mean negative energy is dark energy?

Resurrect me when they make a real hoverboard out of it. Cool


but that assumes c2 is constant I think that is the problem
also the issue of when is a particle mass or when its energy or both at the same time
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:10 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
but that assumes c2 is constant I think that is the problem

If it's not, then we might as well bin the last century of physics and believe Percy's explanation for how helicopters fly.

Maybe the superfluid has positive mass, but is moving backwards in time. That would make it ideal for use in Rainpal's demonstration when it eventually will have had happened.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is it's all about entropy.

It's nearly at zero enthalpy (zero kelvin) and is trying to reach that lowest possible energy state. As soon as you apply energy, it tries to get rid of the ordering that has ensued.

Theoretically, if you put a Bose-Einstein condensate in a beaker, it would crawl out up the sides so it could lie on the floor.

You also have to factor in the energy that is being expended maintaining it at such a low temeprature. By applying energy to the BEC, you apply enthalpy to the system, so it will either begin to change state or the energy has to be given up (ie, it needs to be cooled to remain as a BEC. Poking it would otherwise warm it up).

The process of cooling is actually taking heat energy and moving it elsewhere, usually dissipating it more widely. So the "negative" energy you got from the matter is actually being blown out of a massive heat exchanger somewhere.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
oldpink wrote:
but that assumes c2 is constant I think that is the problem

If it's not, then we might as well bin the last century of physics


that may well be the case, current theorys are looking at the speed of light just after the big bang when it may have been a lot slower
even Einstein knew his theory wasn't perfect
thats why they had to include dark matter to make the sums work Confused
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm, like how the Hubble Constant isn't.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

well as an astronomer I personally never liked the red shift theory saying the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate
so every thing shifts to the red end of the spectrum
doesn't explain a lot of observations like Galaxy's that are in fact moving towards us
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on my extremely dated and minimal schoolboy knowledge of physics a though occurs...

A photon is the fastest moving thing because it has zero mass,
so something with negative mass has less than zero mass?
Dose this mean such an object could exceed the speed of light, or move backwards in time?

I know I'm talking bollocks, could someone explain*

*Explain why I'm wrong, not why I talk bollocks.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:07 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
My understanding is it's all about entropy.

It's nearly at zero enthalpy (zero kelvin) and is trying to reach that lowest possible energy state. As soon as you apply energy, it tries to get rid of the ordering that has ensued.

Theoretically, if you put a Bose-Einstein condensate in a beaker, it would crawl out up the sides so it could lie on the floor.



Kind of, but there isn't any ordering to get rid of because bosons can exist all together in the very lowest energy state. It doesn't doesn't flow up the beaker to escape 'order', it flows up because it has zero viscosity i.e. is frictionless, so nothing is preventing it moving up the sides. Consider that all fluids have a meniscus - superfluid going up the sides of the beaker is just the ultimate, unhindered version of that.

Quote:

You also have to factor in the energy that is being expended maintaining it at such a low temeprature. By applying energy to the BEC, you apply enthalpy to the system, so it will either begin to change state or the energy has to be given up (ie, it needs to be cooled to remain as a BEC. Poking it would otherwise warm it up).

The process of cooling is actually taking heat energy and moving it elsewhere, usually dissipating it more widely. So the "negative" energy you got from the matter is actually being blown out of a massive heat exchanger somewhere.


Funnily enough, just yesterday I said on another thread that some of the material I've studied lately is useless - " 'Totally useless' would be the quantum photonics stuff I'm learning." - but quantum photonics plays a big part here. The Bose-Einstein condensate is made via laser cooling, which means photons are coaxed out of the atom with the laser field set such that the photons that were lost can't be regained, because the doppler effect of the photons against the laser means most incoming photons will have less energy than the outgoing ones, hence energy (and therefore temperature) decreases. The energy that goes into running the laser is completely separate from the photon energy being removed by the setup.

To me the term 'negative mass' (or negative energy) is too misleading, specially given how every popular science blog is claiming it would be possible to literally push an object of negative mass and have it move against that push. The correct term is negative effective mass, which is a way of understanding how mass (normal garden variety 'mass') responds to external inputs. The effective mass can vary for lots of reasons, and does so with necessity in all condensed matter physics (semiconductors being the big one). For the effective mass to be negative is not a sign of its entire physical presence being some spooky mystical reverse-physical thing, it's just an effective mass that is recorded as negative when prodded.

It's fairly telling that there's isn't a word of excitement about this on Physics Forums, whereas the popular science blogger world is going berserk because, "Woooooah impossible negative mass!"


oldpink wrote:
current theorys are looking at the speed of light just after the big bang when it may have been a lot slower


Lots of things will have had different properties in the moments just after the big bang, but it's a matter of scaling. The speed of light is probably always changing but we'll always witness and record it as having the same rate, because we're part of the same universe that light propagates through. Cosmic microwave background radiation is a known remnant of the big bang but that propagates at c, even if c was different when it was created.

This is why it's called a universal constant. Unlike, for example, the rate of expansion of the universe which is different now from what it was at the very start.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
well as an astronomer I personally never liked the red shift theory saying the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate
so every thing shifts to the red end of the spectrum
doesn't explain a lot of observations like Galaxy's that are in fact moving towards us


I quite like it, when held up to the theory that after the thrust from the Big Bang dissipates, the universe will actually begin to shrink back down. If the event horizon is still accelerating, that means logically that the universe hasn't even left the barrel of the cosmic rifle yet.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
nothing is preventing it moving up the sides

https://i.imgur.com/iRor7dY.png
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colink98
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's some heavy shit right there.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capillary_action
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that how gyroscopicopters work as well?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 20 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

No they have negative mass so they repel gravity. The spinning rotors on top are just for show.

https://www.qiqigames.com/thumb/33/Cow-Copter-Hacked.jpg
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 23 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quantum optics has had similar predictions. The energy from a light source travelling in the opposite direction to the direction of the wave. Implications of this are quite exciting too. I'm mainly thinking about some dragon ball Z kamehameha shit, or shooting a laser at the sun and sucking energy from it. Starkiller base anyone?
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 18:30 - 23 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread.

https://m.popkey.co/574b46/WxVke.gif
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 23 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

After this mornings cack I'm pretty sure my colon qualifies as negative mass.

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