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"Not a natural biker"- question about brakes

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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 22:17 - 03 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the 70%/30% (in reality nearer 95%/5% on dry good roads) is actually the pressure you apply to the brake.

You don't think 'oh, I'll use the front brake alone' 70% of the time and the rear the remaining 30% of the time. Its both, all the time.

The exception is for the occasions where the road is either so good or so bad that you use only one brake. For example, when filtering over hatched lines in the middle of the road, you'll often find gravel liberally strewn where you are riding. Do NOT use your front brake in these circumstances because it'll lock up and you'll fall off.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 22:18 - 03 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:
Many moons ago when I instructed

Like the drunk fan howling abuse at the sportsball players is coaching them.
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Tracer1234
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 03 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I done readed it!! Very Happy

Jokes aside, great work Tef! Thumbs Up Karma
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M.C
Super Spammer



Joined: 29 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 03 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mrmistoffelees wrote:
mrmistoffelees wrote:
From what I was taught last year,

You don't use your front brake below 10mph as the bike will want to go down...

Really, why so?

Because that's utter rubbish.

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the 70%/30% (in reality nearer 95%/5% on dry good roads) is actually the pressure you apply to the brake.

You don't think 'oh, I'll use the front brake alone' 70% of the time and the rear the remaining 30% of the time. Its both, all the time.

I'm not advocating my riding 'style' (if you can call it that), but on a dry normal ride I won't touch the rear except for hill starts.

You don't need to be scared of your brakes, they're your friend.
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Pigeon
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 03 May 2017    Post subject: Re: "Not a natural biker"- question about brakes Reply with quote
SomersetWolf wrote:
pants and crack in my first post - whoops Razz



You'll do fine here. Thumbs Up





If your suspension isn't hard.....gigity....then using rear brake on its own can help slow you down without fork dive, which can cause balance issues if unexpected / not used to it.
Basically, use the rear brake as the only brake when not wanting the bike to move around too much and the situation doesn't warrant much braking effectiveness.

I use rear brake:
Slow speed manoeuvrers (car parks, junctions, u-turn.....done 2 in 4 years).
Filtering
Going a little too fast into a corner and wanting to pull the front into the corner and not run wide (this hasn't happened in a while).


A work colleague got her scooter and for the first 6 weeks was a bag of nerves. Now she loves it!


No magic cure, just time and practice.

Last edited by Pigeon on 22:31 - 04 May 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 00:56 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Jeezuz fucking christ, Tef. Do you really expect anyone to read that?

What, other than the Borg, to find something to quote, misquote or regurgitate in another form?

I have few expectations these days.. death, taxes, and however did we live without them kitchen gadgets advertised at Christmas, are some of the few certainties in life.... oh... and ste offering the obligatory word count!

With so much crap on the net, ported to our screens these days, mostly trying to get me to buy something like something I have already just bought on e-bay, or switch to a different gas/electric/telephone/milk on the doorstep/pizza to the door/banking/insurance/pension/ supplier etc....

MY ramblings you moan rob band width?!?

How many words was that Ste?
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 01:38 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not enough for word count to be provided. Razz

Ah, what the hell:

116 Words
675 Characters
3 Sentences
5 Paragraphs

Reading Time 26 sec
Speaking Time 39 sec

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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: 06:24 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:
You say you did IAM


whuh
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 06:50 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:
[Grumpy]

When are you going to show us your qualification to instruct?
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mrmistoffelee...
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Joined: 05 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: 08:43 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

Why no?


As novice rider with 1yr experience this is why i ask.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 09:00 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
I'm not advocating my riding 'style' (if you can call it that), but on a dry normal ride I won't touch the rear except for hill starts.


Then I would say you still have a bit to learn about slow speed control. Broaden your horizons and try using the rear brake. It provides stability when moving very slowly (filtering) and can help to tighten a turn (small mini roundabouts etc.) or settle the bike down.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:13 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mrmistoffelees wrote:
M.C wrote:
The front brake will slow you down a lot more effectively (than the rear), you just have to avoid grabbing at them (panic braking) straight away and you'll be fine.

Really, why so?

<Tefmode>
The front will slow you much more effectively because if you use either brake, the bike will try to rotate forwards around the axle(s) that are applying the braking, pressing the front down harder and increasing its grip.

If you're using the front (as you should be, because more grip), that tends to lighten the rear of the bike, ultimately resulting in lifting it up in a stoppie. That's why it's much easier to lock up the rear, as it's not gripping the road and being spun as hard.

However, if you do lock up the rear, it's less of an issue because you're dragging it behind your centre of gravity like an anchor. It's not likely to spit you off.

Conversely, if you lock up the front, you've got most of the weight of the bike trying to grind a stationary piece of sticky rubber along the road, and that's much less forgiving.

Try it with a pencil and eraser on a desk. Press down and pull the eraser behind, no problem. Press down and push it ahead, it'll tend to dig in and the pencil will rotate round it.

Yes, there are biking gods here who have locked up the front and recovered it, although that does beg the question of why they locked it up in the first place. Whistle

Also something something trials riding.
</Tefmode>
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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mrmistoffelee...
Nova Slayer



Joined: 05 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: 09:27 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

<Tefmode>
The front will slow you much more effectively because if you use either brake, the bike will try to rotate forwards around the axle(s) that are applying the braking, pressing the front down harder and increasing its grip.

If you're using the front (as you should be, because more grip), that tends to lighten the rear of the bike, ultimately resulting in lifting it up in a stoppie. That's why it's much easier to lock up the rear, as it's not gripping the road and being spun as hard.

However, if you do lock up the rear, it's less of an issue because you're dragging it behind your centre of gravity like an anchor. It's not likely to spit you off.

Conversely, if you lock up the front, you've got most of the weight of the bike trying to grind a stationary piece of sticky rubber along the road, and that's much less forgiving.

Try it with a pencil and eraser on a desk. Press down and pull the eraser behind, no problem. Press down and push it ahead, it'll tend to dig in and the pencil will rotate round it.

Yes, there are biking gods here who have locked up the front and recovered it, although that does beg the question of why they locked it up in the first place. Whistle

Also something something trials riding.
</Tefmode>


I think you're advocating why not to use the front brake at low speeds? which is what i was taught not to do

Or i need more sleep/having a thick as pig shit moment !
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onlyJaz
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 24 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
4,796 Words.
25,830 Characters.
82 Sentences.
66 Paragraphs.

Reading time 17 mins 26 sec
Speaking time 26 mins 38 sec

Laughing

4,796 words could be typed in less than an hour by typing faster than 80 words per minute. Thumbs Up



People do university dissertations with less words
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Mark_F
Crazy Courier



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mrmistoffelees wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

<Tefmode>
The front will slow you much more effectively because if you use either brake, the bike will try to rotate forwards around the axle(s) that are applying the braking, pressing the front down harder and increasing its grip.

If you're using the front (as you should be, because more grip), that tends to lighten the rear of the bike, ultimately resulting in lifting it up in a stoppie. That's why it's much easier to lock up the rear, as it's not gripping the road and being spun as hard.

However, if you do lock up the rear, it's less of an issue because you're dragging it behind your centre of gravity like an anchor. It's not likely to spit you off.

Conversely, if you lock up the front, you've got most of the weight of the bike trying to grind a stationary piece of sticky rubber along the road, and that's much less forgiving.

Try it with a pencil and eraser on a desk. Press down and pull the eraser behind, no problem. Press down and push it ahead, it'll tend to dig in and the pencil will rotate round it.

Yes, there are biking gods here who have locked up the front and recovered it, although that does beg the question of why they locked it up in the first place. Whistle

Also something something trials riding.
</Tefmode>


I think you're advocating why not to use the front brake at low speeds? which is what i was taught not to do

Or i need more sleep/having a thick as pig shit moment !


There's nothing really wrong with using the front brake to stop at low speeds, you just need a smidge more finesse with it than using the rear brake (that you can only get with practise). Just be progressive with the front (start gentle and don't get to the point where the rear lifts, and you will feel when you're going too far before you reach the tipping point).

Saying "only use the rear at low speeds" is a bit silly IMO. It says nothing about what you should consider a "low" speed, and nothing about the distance you have to stop in (which may be less than ideal due to someone else entering the equation).

Take your time and practise. The front brake is nothing to be afraid of, and the ability to use it can make a big difference to your confidence.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt B wrote:
M.C wrote:
I'm not advocating my riding 'style' (if you can call it that), but on a dry normal ride I won't touch the rear except for hill starts.


Then I would say you still have a bit to learn about slow speed control. Broaden your horizons and try using the rear brake. It provides stability when moving very slowly (filtering) and can help to tighten a turn (small mini roundabouts etc.) or settle the bike down.

I have, I found it destroyed rear brakes and didn't give me any extra confidence. I'm happy using the clutch (for control) and mainly the front brake.

mrmistoffelees wrote:
I think you're advocating why not to use the front brake at low speeds? which is what i was taught not to do

^ Mark_F put it better than me Smile They're saving their bikes; preventing a student from potentially grabbing at the front brake and going down. My first ever go on a bike was a 'freeride' (where they give any noob a go on a motorcycle), they said to only use the rear brake. Any level beyond that it shouldn't be an issue.
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 11:10 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
onlyJaz wrote:
Ste wrote:
4,796 Words.
25,830 Characters.
82 Sentences.
66 Paragraphs.

Reading time 17 mins 26 sec
Speaking time 26 mins 38 sec

Laughing

4,796 words could be typed in less than an hour by typing faster than 80 words per minute. Thumbs Up



People do university dissertations with less words


Yes, but I'd hope that someone of degree standard would use fewer words. Wink
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
They're saving their bikes; preventing a student from potentially grabbing at the front brake and going down..


They're probably saving time more than anything else, as when doing a CBT you only get scheduled a day, which doesn't give much time to practise things that need more finesse (bearing in mind that some will struggle with it, and CBTs are done in various weathers). Ideally both brakes should be used together when stopping, and it does take time to get comfortable with it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:49 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Using the front at low speeds is just fine, I do it all the time. The issue is if you brake abruptly and stop the wheel while the bike is still trying to move forwards.

That momentum is going somewhere: ideally into compressing the forks in an awesome stoppie which will make women want you and men want to be you, less ideally into throwing the bike sideways which will unite the world in lolling at you.

Again though that just comes down to locking the rear being more forgiving. Don't be hamfist (or hamfoot) and it won't be an issue.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark_F wrote:
M.C wrote:
They're saving their bikes; preventing a student from potentially grabbing at the front brake and going down..


They're probably saving time more than anything else, as when doing a CBT you only get scheduled a day, which doesn't give much time to practise things that need more finesse (bearing in mind that some will struggle with it, and CBTs are done in various weathers).

Well they 'let' me use the front brake on my CBT, and the guy was in a hurry. The whole thing was 2.5 hours (including all the talking bits), and that was mainly cos I was a bit shit in the yard.

Rogerborg wrote:
Again though that just comes down to locking the rear being more forgiving. Don't be hamfist (or hamfoot) and it won't be an issue.

I've never *touch wood* locked-up on a motorbike but yes locking the rear will result in a well wicked skid, locking the front will probably end up with you on your face. I just don't like instructors instilling fear in their pupils for the sake of a bent lever or two. Most school bikes are shagged anyway.
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AshWebster
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 05 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
In the dry -

Front brake when slowing down from 70mph-30mph ish. back brake from 25mph to stop.

Like others have said if you're going normal speeds you wont ever need to grab the brakes. a slight squeeze of the front brake will do an impressive amount of braking even from 60mph.

for your mod one use/drag back brake on all the slow stuff (slalom, U-turn, slow ride, fig 8 etc. , and then use the front brake for the emergency stop (don't use back brake or you risk locking up)

just my two cents - source - I did this 4 months ago
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mrmistoffelee...
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
AshWebster wrote:
In the dry -

Front brake when slowing down from 70mph-30mph ish. back brake from 25mph to stop.

Like others have said if you're going normal speeds you wont ever need to grab the brakes. a slight squeeze of the front brake will do an impressive amount of braking even from 60mph.

for your mod one use/drag back brake on all the slow stuff (slalom, U-turn, slow ride, fig 8 etc. , and then use the front brake for the emergency stop (don't use back brake or you risk locking up)

just my two cents - source - I did this 4 months ago


This is what i was told... but not to use the front brake under 10mph...25mph seems high?

What do i know, answer, nowt !!
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I use the rear more than I should. I've locked it up a few times and stayed upright. The same wouldn't have happened if I'd locked the front.

My general guideline is rear for controlling speed, both brakes for stopping with a bias towards the front.

If you need to shave a bit of speed off on a bend then the rear is probably the better one to use, but of course you'll have been taught to enter the corner at the right speed.

Stopping in a straight line in the dry there's no real need to use the rear brake at all. In the wet or on a bend (damn roundabouts with lights) balance the stopping power as best you can.

Last edited by angryjonny on 14:38 - 04 May 2017; edited 1 time in total
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AshWebster
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 05 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
when I say use I mean slightly apply pressure not stamp on Wink if you stamp on it from 25 yes it is too high a speed ha Very Happy
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 04 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perhaps rather than teaching people that they'll fall off if they use the front brake below 25mph or 10mph or whatever other speed, it would be more useful to tell them that the front brake is the one which has got the real stopping power and so that's something to be aware of not just at low speeds but at all speeds.
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