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Royal Enfield to buy Ducati?

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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 06 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Triumph got their fingers pretty badly burnt with the amount the Daytona 675 cost them to develop.


I thought the British gov. gave them the money. Thinking
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 00:02 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:
Polarbear wrote:

Triumph got their fingers pretty badly burnt with the amount the Daytona 675 cost them to develop.


Really? The platform that took on the Japanese and dominated Supersport for several years, the engine + frame was then re-used and was their largest selling bike worldwide and spawned the 765 which they will be supplying to Moto2 championship.
Not saying it didn't cost a lot, but it's also dominated their sales in one form or another and raised their profile around the world.


You are completely right, it did do all those things for Triumph but it was at huge cost financially to a very small firm (compared with the Japanese). The Street Triple was a marketing masterpiece as well.

I was in the Triumph dealership at Woburn a few years back talking to an engineer from Hinkley at an open day. I asked why Triumph never made a litre superbike and he said about the 675 and the cost to make it competitive with the Japanese 600's. He said they would never ever be able to make a comparable litre bike.

That was then though, Triumph are bigger now and have the financial clout and depending on how their foray into Moto2 goes, they might change direction and build a big sports bike but in reality, I very much doubt it..
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arry
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would need 4 cylinders for starters. Can't see them going through that development loop.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw somewhere recently that Mahindra were interested as well...
If Ducati is sold off then IMO I can't see anyone except Indian or Chinese money being involved...
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weasley
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piaggio? It seems to be the only relatively solvent Italian option, although they have Aprilia already (doesn't stop some big groups having overlapping brands though).

But yeah, yuans or rupees is likely.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd assume that any buyer would want to move production to some sweaty East Asian hellhole, maybe keeping a token presence in Italy to handle support for 30 hours a week, 40 weeks a year.

Would the Eyeties go for that? They might rather drown it in the bath themselves than see it outsourced.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I'd assume that any buyer would want to move production to some sweaty East Asian hellhole...


Not necessarily, SWM is owned by Shineray, manufactured in italy, with, at least the early ones, having Husqvarna engines, may have changed to KTM engines now, not sure ..
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
I'd assume that any buyer would want to move production to some sweaty East Asian hellhole...

Not necessarily, SWM is owned by Shineray, manufactured in italy, with, at least the early ones, having Husqvarna engines, may have changed to KTM engines now, not sure ..

If they started making some/most parts in India/China and shipping them to Italy just for assembly then they'd save a shed load and would still have the appearance of being a European brand, which must be a positive in the American and Japanese markets.
Maybe we'd end up with a 125 Hyper, Monster and Panigale, all made in India/China but the big stuff relies on the image as much as the product which wouldn't be so high if it was known to be assembled elsewhere.
Look at HD, who (I believe) get lots of their parts from China/India but they're still sold on their image (they wouldn't sell many based purely on their product... Laughing ).
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpineandy wrote:

Look at HD, who (I believe) get lots of their parts from China/India but they're still sold on their image (they wouldn't sell many based purely on their product... Laughing ).


I thought that was Polaris with their Victory bikes and now Indians. I might be wrong but I still think HD is in the majority manufactured in the US.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anecdotally (the singular of data):

There was a recent article in one of the magazines that I was reading that said about 10% to 15% of the Indian is foreign origin... about 20% for Victory... and 35% to 50% for HD's.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I might be wrong but I still think HD is in the majority manufactured in the US.

There's quite a few sources that say HD aren't .
This https://www.throttlexbatteries.com/details.aspx?p=A4D3D61DCEB3C859&ppid=59924&beid=7BD67A6B7D0B565F
Says
"Technically speaking, Harley-Davidson motorcycles sold in the United States are not actually made here, but assembled here. Harley contracts manufacturing of parts to plants located all over the world, including Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico. Those parts are then shipped to Harley factories here."
Some of the others add China and India to the list of supplying countries.
I'm sure plenty of bits are made in Murica but nowhere near as much as people think...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:04 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpineandy wrote:
I'm sure plenty of bits are made in Murica.

I think that's where they remove all the lightness.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Alpineandy wrote:
I'm sure plenty of bits are made in Murica.

I think that's where they remove all the lightness.

And smoothness... Laughing
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 22:11 - 07 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh !! How flukey is this, I only mentioned SWM earlier, and, well ...

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/first-rides-tests/2017/june/swm-superdual-review/
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 08 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Ducati viable on it's own?

If it goes Chinese or Indian it's going to be the death of it. People just aren't going to pay the best part of £20,000 for a Chinese or Indian bike.

Even if it stays in Italy just with Chinese money people won't believe that parts are not being imported from the other country to be fitted to the bike.

Look at when the Chinese tried to make a luxury brand motorcycle with Benelli. You could buy a new Tornado for half list price, they just couldn't shift them.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 08 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yet look at Volvo. Going from strength to strength funded from China. Jaguar Land Rover the same from India. If you can pull off the ability to stay with your roots, keep the brand values you always had (including national identity) but get funding from a big foreign pool, it can work.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 08 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:
And yet look at Volvo. Going from strength to strength funded from China. Jaguar Land Rover the same from India. If you can pull off the ability to stay with your roots, keep the brand values you always had (including national identity) but get funding from a big foreign pool, it can work.


You could be right. As you say it has worked with cars but I just don't see bikers being that understanding. Funny fuckers us!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 08 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Look at when the Chinese tried to make a luxury brand motorcycle with Benelli. You could buy a new Tornado for half list price, they just couldn't shift them.

Because (in the UK at least) it seems that they haven't invested a single Yuan into the dealer chain.

They're still imported by MotoGB along with 8 other brands-of-the-month and sold through a patchy network of independent multi-marque dealers.

I keep banging on about this, but if they want to sell bikes at a premium price, they need to offer a sales and support service to match. Chinese manufacturers seem happy to punt out the bikes and let 3rd parties add value (or not, as is more usual, see WK).

The BN302 does offer more than a BMW G310R, granted. More weight and more cost.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 08 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Is Ducati viable on it's own?

If it goes Chinese or Indian it's going to be the death of it. People just aren't going to pay the best part of £20,000 for a Chinese or Indian bike.

Even if it stays in Italy just with Chinese money people won't believe that parts are not being imported from the other country to be fitted to the bike.

If Japanese bikes can be made in China at the standard required by the Japanese companies then why not.
It'll all come down to whether a Chinese/Indian owner can keep the quality of the parts up to the level required.
No doubt that if they lower the quality of parts then they'll get a reputation for 'being a Chinese/Indian bike' and wave goodbye to their ability to sell at Ducati prices.
Then it'll be like AJS (or many other names) that are just a badge to stick on some cheap shite.
But The Chinese and Indians can also make very high quality parts when required (the problem is ensuring they stay to that level).
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 21:58 - 25 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indian news seems to be reporting that Bajaj Motorcycles is in negotiations to buy some or all of Ducati and that it's hoped they will make a formal announcement within two weeks...
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 25 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to all those Indian made Ducati 125s Neutral
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 25 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Looking forward to all those Indian made Ducati 125s Neutral

Which one will you be going for?
The 125 Monster
The 125 Hypermotard
Or the 125 Diavel
Question
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:15 - 26 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

125 Panigale Thumbs Up
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secretagentmo...
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PostPosted: 20:50 - 26 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I thought that was Polaris with their Victory bikes and now Indians. I might be wrong but I still think HD is in the majority manufactured in the US.


The Street 750 is made in India....
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:22 - 26 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

secretagentmole wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
I thought that was Polaris with their Victory bikes and now Indians. I might be wrong but I still think HD is in the majority manufactured in the US.


The Street 750 is made in India....


Is it? I'm not sure how that will go down with the muricans
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