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Oil change basic halp.

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NJD
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Oil change basic halp. Reply with quote

Long and short decided it's time to give the bike some fresh oil and plugs. I've got no service history and while it's running alright, albeit a low idle for most of my commute, I'd rather now what's what and how fresh everything is.

Two things:

1) Can't figure out what size sump plug washer I need so is anyone in the know more than I am or should I get an assorment set like this from Halfords and hope one fits as a like for like replacement.

2) What oil filter should I get?

I'm ordering the service parts from SBS since they're decently priced and so the oil filter choice is between the following unless I'm missing a trick and there's a better alternative. I'm clueless so educate where needed.

£10.72 for four plugs and £24.90 for 5l of oil, bargain. Tis the point where I shoot myself in the foot for ever getting a tiddler shop serviced.

That's about it.

Beside the 72 page "spark plug in engine wut do" thread.

Cheers.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) The washer tends to be universal. Do a visual spec and if it's not ruined by the previous owner, re-use it. There goes very little Nm of torque, if the washer is ruined, then someone put excesive torque there.
*DO NOT torque it down when the engine is hot!
*When you buy the oil filter for your bike, the manufacturers tend to include a new copper washer.
**IF the washer is not re-useable and there is none in the oil filter package, then just take it/the bolt + washer to your local hardware store. Cheap as feck.

2) Oil filter depends on what motorcycle are we talking about, yet again these tend to be universal. Now I see it's a ZR7, just get whatever is cheap enough. Hiflo HF401, I suppose.
*Lube the rubber rings with oil before you mount the filter.

SPARK PLUGS
IF you've never changed spark plugs before, then do as I say. First seat the plug in and apply slight pressure on it while turning it left, the moment you hear the click sound = you found the thread; then start the tightening. This way you're gonna make sure you're not ruining the thread in the head. It is very easy to cross thread a spark plug.
And yet again, there's next to no torque required to tighten the spark plugs, do not over do them.

EDIT: This explains what I mean with the go left then right: https://youtu.be/biaJXtuXawc?t=19s Thumbs Up
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 17:45 - 18 May 2017; edited 2 times in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes to getting a box-o-washers. You can anneal a copper washer in a gas flame, but your time is probably better spent elsewhere.

+infinity to not over-tightening the sump bolt on replacement. Manly finger tight plus perhaps 1/8th of a turn (0.625 of a quarter circle) with a re-used washer, or 1/4 turn (1.25 quarter circles) with a fresh one. Don't trust a clicky-torque wrench to click before you strip the threads.

I use HiFlo filters because I am a cheap Scotch.

Oil is whatever 10W40 comes to hand in Morrisons. I wouldn't pay £25 for 5 litrons unless I was planning on neglecting changes, which I'm not. You knock yourself out though.

Before taking the plugs out, blow out any crud from around them if you can. A big floor pump and a narrow nozzle can give a surprising amount of whoosh.

If the plugs are recessed, when you put them back in use a piece of garden hose to hold them rather than a socket. That way you've got no chance of cross-threading them. The socket is just for final tightening and again don't go berserk: you're looking at a 1/4 to 3/8s turn (1.875 quarter circles). You can always nip them up a little more later.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guessing I'm the only one who doesn't replace the washer Embarassed Anything that needs a torque wrench don't overtighten, and try not to crossthread any bolt Razz

Edit: if your bike has a toolkit it might have a tool for the plugs.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Guessing I'm the only one who doesn't replace the washer


No I'm a cheap bastard too. Blow torch on a copper washer for at least 3 oil changes before I replace the washer.

NJD, have you looked on eBay for "ZR7 service kit", with my ZZR it was the cheapest way to get oil filter, air filter and NGK plugs.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Guessing I'm the only one who doesn't replace the washer Embarassed


Nope, I also re-use the washer if it's in alright condition. Always make visual check. IF the washer is included with the oil filter, that I for any reason decide to buy (mostly from Hiflo), then I replace it regardles of how well the current washer looks.

The washer only really gets damaged, if you over tighten the sump plug. I'm not sure what torque goes there, but the last oil change I did was on my car and there goes 25Nm, which is next to nothing. Do as Roger says, if you don't have a torqure wrench that you can trust and/or skills to use it properly.

ALSO, make sure, talk yourself through the procedure if neccessary, that you put the washer there, that you tighten the sump plug propely, that you replace all the rubber rings of the oil filter and lube them (or lube the seal on the modern ''can'' type filter).

Pro-tip: When I replace the engine oil, I drain it, when it stopps pouring, I open the filler cap and pour a little amount of fresh engine oil into the crank case, which washes off/cleans the bottom of the oil pan. Then I put the sump plug there, change the filter and it's time to fill the engine up.
Silly it might be, but on neglected engines, this always washes out some nasty dark stuff, that sits on bottom of the oil pan.

By the way, wipe any oil and dirt off the sump plug and the place you're going to screw it into, before you put it back. Thumbs Up
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NJD
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PostPosted: 21:53 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copper washers, wut? I went out and got these. They are ok to use, right? Yes I semi did know about copper washer before investing but didn't see any amongst the shelves. No different from what I was going to get from Halfords but a quid cheaper (I missed the sub £2 pack as assume store didn't have them, balls!)

Quick eBay and most service kits are £50-60. Sportsbikeshop looks like the best value yet but I've got a list of retailers in a book somewhere for the parts for me bike so I'll have a scan on the web when I've got time before I purchase to see what's what.

I've already got a tool for the spark plug, got me self a t bar socket a while ago (links for reference.)

I've managed to do my rear axle and brakes up by "hand feel" and haven't come acroppa yet so won't be using a torque wrench on the sump or oil filter. After I tightened my axle I said it's far too easy to get it wrong with one of those so always favour using the least powerful tool possible and keep an eye on it (ie: any movement in loosening).

There's always this video if I need a visual reference.

I don't plan on doing the work until next weekend anyway so there's no rush. I'll have a proper read through before going hands on then.

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
Copper washers, wut? I went out and got these. They are ok to use, right?

<serious face>

Those are plated steel. The point of a copper or aluminium washer is that it's soft and will crush down and seal tightly. If you look at a used one you can often see the imprint of the bolt or sump on it. You don't want to use a steel washer.

I used to have one of those jointed T-bars, then I snapped it at the joint trying to get a plug out that some gorilla had put in. Hopefully you'll be luckier. They don't need to go back in with anything like the force you might need to get them out.

Oh, if the plugs have been in for a while, I'd recommend putting plenty of Plusgas or other penetrating fluid down there before attempting removal.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
Copper washers, wut?


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14-mm-copper-Crush-compression-DRAIN-PLUG-SEALING-washer-sump-10-pcs-x-UK-/180953041985?hash=item2a21a44c41:g:qJIAAOSw6EhUQ1e5

(may not be the size for yours)
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NJD
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
<serious face>


Excellent. I can't even tie my own mechanical shoelaces and get a purchase right.

Always better to ask, why I made the thread before a time of needing to do the work because easier than last minuate.com.

So are zinc plated washers useful anywhere else on the bike or do I just return them? I'll pop into halfords and pick up a set of copper ones when I get the time. Thumbs Up

I've no idea how long anythings been where as the bike came with no service history. I was aware from day one that most people would have stripped the consumables and changed or inspected them but it's been running fine and starts on the button which is why I've delayed it somewhat but knows about the right time to tick a couple of other jobs of the list. Also why I'm looking at replacing everything because it's not just another inspection it's the first, under my ownership.

I only purchased the t-bar because of the angle and position of the inside spark plugs. See how I get on with it. I plan to do all the work when there's leeway to not need the bike the next day anyway so there's room for error, including needing alternative tools.

There's also the air filter but I'll do that another time because IIRC there's some fiddling around with the fuel tank and other bits, not as easy as the Arrow <sadface>.

wr6133 wrote:
(may not be the size for yours)


I don't know what size mine is truth be told so as above I'll go for an assortment and hope for the best.

..

Oh, and also, why does the halfords advert say "1/4" 20 Qty, 5/16" 15 Qty, 3/8" 15 Qty, 7/16" 15 Qty, 1/2" 5 Qty, 5/8" 5 Qty" for sizes, shouldn't they be metric?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:45 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zinc plated steel washers are for spacing, spreading load, or protecting a mating surface from a bolt chewing down in it. You'll doubtless find a use for them eventually.

The T-bar will probably be OK, I'm just Teffing.

Crush washers don't have to be an exact metric size since the point isn't to form a tight seal around the bolt shaft, but to seal between the bolt head and the sump. They were probable sized back in 19-dickety-6 and there's never been a need to change them.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 12 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Zinc plated steel washers are for spacing, spreading load, or protecting a mating surface from a bolt chewing down in it. You'll doubtless find a use for them eventually.


<scans manual to attempt to make purchase worthwhile.>

Oh washers where art thou when I needed to replace the locknut on the seat of the Arrow <rolls eyes>.

Cheers for the advice, I'll scan the local Halfords.

Re the oil I was investing in 10w40 Motul 5000. If you where to ask me what I'd be getting from that vs, as per your recommendation, the Morrison's, or any supermarket, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Mainly just don't mind spending that because most of the products recommended on CMPO when I had the Arrow where Motul and it's what I've got a 1/4 litre of stored away.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick one. I realise spark plugs have to be gapped and the workshop manual states "0.6 ~ 0.7 mm (0.024 ~ 0.028 in)." I checked one of the plugs, at random, and found that the "0.6 ~ 0.024 in" gauge on my set of Halfords feeler gauges fits, as the picture below shows, with ease, perhaps too much?

I realise that there's room for another "0.004 inches or 0.1 mm" but still that would be too big a gap from standard right? Are these things supposed to be like valves in that they (the feeler gauge) should fit smoothly, just about, with only a little drag? As is stands can move the feeler gauge up and down between the electrode (the black bit, right?) and the metal hook thing at the top with ease (picture shows how much room there is)

Do the spark plug gaping tools reduce gaps or need I not worry?

https://s4.postimg.org/okb138r65/IMG_4785_1.jpg

.. And since cross threading is mentioned spark plugs operate under the "left loosey, righty tightey" rule, right?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is how a feeler gauge works, if the gauge is too loose or you can't even put it through there, then you have got a problem. You may bend the, what do you call it, metal plate on the plug, as you need it. Nothing too excessive though.

Yes,
LEFT = unscrew
RIGHT = tighten

When you put the plugs back in, seat them in and rotate left before you hear a click sound = you've just found the thread, screw them in by hand. Make a habit of it. Then tighten them, if you have a torqure wrench and know how to use it, then to the specific torque. Worth noting, the Torque will be about 27Nm, which is a bit more than hand tight, so don't over do it. * SORRY, READ MANUAL HERE!

*Tip = mostly things that spin clockwise have the oposit thread (for instance, the visco-clutch fan of most of the cars). Things that are not meant to be spining, such as you spark plugs, have the standard "left loosey, righty tightey" thing.

EDIT: Yes, I do know I've told you this before, at least you won't forget it.
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 11:34 - 18 May 2017; edited 1 time in total
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NJD
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

27Nm for a spark plug? I'd end up like bodyguard if I applied that much.

14Nm is what the workshop manual states. As borg says better to under than over and then adjust on the fly. Even the caliper mounting bolts are only 34Nm and that's achievable with a 1/4 ratchet without much attempt. I wouldn't want to get anywhere near that with a plug.

Plus wouldn't it be rotate to the right, to put back in, because otherwise you'd just be loosening it? Clockwise to tighten, so right?

Aye, realise things that aren't normal threaded are marked as such but rather ask than play a game of "how may of the four spark plugs can you strip before get it right." Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

[UPDATE] Please ignore Tefmaths.

If a 0.7mm just fits, and a 0.8mm doesn't fit you're fine.

However, don't sweat it too much. I've run over-gapped, under-gapped, randomly-gapped, side-gapped: they all spark.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:33 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
27Nm for a spark plug? I'd end up like bodyguard if I applied that much. 14Nm is what the workshop manual states.


Well, I'm too used to work on cars these days, didn't realise it was this low for motorcycle engines. Embarassed

NJD wrote:
Plus wouldn't it be rotate to the right, to put back in, because otherwise you'd just be loosening it? Clockwise to tighten, so right?


You want to rotate it left (when putting the plugs back in) to find the ''end'' of the thread, so you don't cross thread it when you start screwing it in (turning it right). I think I can't quite explain this right. Using this method, cross threading is imposible, unless you're a certain member of this forum.

This is what I mean: https://youtu.be/zPyTfHZFc_k?t=13s
(in 9 out of 10 cases you'll be probably fine just screwing in the plugs as you're used to, but that 1 case you may cross thread a spark plug and then it's helicoil/new head time).
EDIT: This explains it better, I guess: https://youtu.be/biaJXtuXawc?t=19s Thumbs Up
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NJD
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Do you have a 0.7mm? Does that fit? If you can get a 0.7mm in then the gap is (notionally) too big and you should close it up a fraction.

However, if you can't fit an 0.8mm, don't sweat it. I've run over-gapped, under-gapped, randomly-gapped, side-gapped: they all spark.


Can fit a 0.015 mm and still move up and down, albeit not as much as the lower ones, naturally.

What's the best way to close the gap without damaging the metal part. They're cheap enough to replace but I'd rather not damage, inadvertent or otherwise, and then insert in bike.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
What's the best way to close the gap without damaging the metal part.

Use the proper tool, don't just shove it against the nearest hard surface and push with precisely not-too-many Newtons of force!



... sorry, I have no idea what the proper tool is, or any any other way to do it. Whistle

Hard surface, press a bit, measure the gap. Repeat as necessary. You don't need much force at all.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

↑ that's what I did ↑ Thumbs Up
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weasley
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have only ever gapped spark plugs by tapping the electrode on a solid surface. Then finding some pliers to loosen it again. Then tapping more softly and checking after every tap. They're quite malleable and bend easily.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it down to about 0.08 mm running through freely with the next one up, 0.10 mm, rubbing. I should probably leave it their, right? I realise the gap is small but can't help feeling the hooky bit might be getting a little too close to the electrode, or is the below right and normal?

https://s15.postimg.org/8954b2e0r/IMG_4807_1.jpg
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pudder
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
Got it down to about 0.08 mm running through freely with the next one up, 0.10 mm, rubbing. I should probably leave it their, right? I realise the gap is small but can't help feeling the hooky bit might be getting a little too close to the electrode, or is the below right and normal?


Assuming you mean 0.8mm and 1.0mm? Certainly looks that way from the picture.

Sounds like it wants closing up a little more.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pudder wrote:
Assuming you mean 0.8mm and 1.0mm? Certainly looks that way from the picture.


No, 0.08 mm / .003 inches or 0.10 mm / .004 inches. I'm just reading of the gauges I've got:

https://s21.postimg.org/r3rqfuep3/IMG_4808_1.jpg

The bottom one is the one I want. I just wanted to check that I was getting the hooky bit too close to the electrode as I've never seen a correctly gapped plug before and they got delivered with quite a gap in them contrary to my belief of them coming pre-gapped but I've since gathered it's because they've probably useable across a wide range of engines and so on.

I'll crack on. Thumbs Up
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 18 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
Quick one. I realise spark plugs have to be gapped and the workshop manual states 0.6 ~ 0.7 mm

Count the zeroes on those gauges. Wink

As above, use a pair of pliers to bend them slowly back out to about ten times what you've got them set to.

We'll never speak of it again. Shhh!
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