Automatic Motorcycle vs Automatic Scooter - HELP/ADVICE?

[jazzinspace]

I live in Camberwell (zone 2) in london.
I want a bike to commute to bank with every day.

The main question buzzing around my head for the last few weeks is whether I should go for a Honda NC750X DCT or Vespa GTS Super 300.

I have very little experience as a motorist in london but I'm completing my full licence in a week and I have a crappy 125cc manual bike that I hate using in the 'stop-and-start' traffic jams of rush hour.

NC750X
I was attracted to the idea of a bit more power and the masculinity of the NC750X. I am worried by the large height and weight (230kg) of the bike, Filtering through really tight roads and traffic jams seems like a regular experience for me and I have barely had a chance to go faster than 35mph.

Vespa 300 GTS Super
I find it a bit girly. I like the fact that it weighs less (158kg) and has a lower centre of gravity for those moments where you have to put a foot down and change lane in standstill traffic or squeeze through some gap.

Help me with your thoughts!

[Rogerborg]

I'm an advocate of the minimum bike for the purpose, and while my commute is nothing like a London grind, I'd rather have automatic than manual. I couldn't fault the efficiency of my Burgman, but it was just so dull.

How crappy is your 125? My air cooled CG-copy had issues finding neutral when it was hot, even with fresh oil, which made it a bit of a fuss in traffic.

No such problems with my GS or Ninja. The Ninja's clutch and gearbox in particular are so light that it feels almost telepathic.

I realise this rambling, but I'm coming around to suggesting trying some manual bikes before deciding on either of your candidates. For example, how about a Z300 (or even Z250)?

By the way, I hope you have properly secure parking. The Vespa in particular is a prime candidate for being repurposed by pikeys.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[M.C]

[Rogerborg]

Just throwing it out there in case OP's 125 and training bikes are neutral-averse - not all bikes are like that.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[jazzinspace]

Thanks for replying.

Current Bike: It's a Suzuki Marauder 125 GZ. It's like 10 years old and has epic miles on it... but it only cost me 900quid so I thought it would be a nice warm up whilst I hunt for bae.

p.s - I have no secure parking whatsoever was going to get a tracker/theft insurance and hope for the best.

I'm pretty sure manual is not for me man; today it was traffic jams all the way to work during rush hour and it's literally go from 1st to 2nd gear to move 10ft then go back again so I'm not enjoying it zzzz.

M.C - yeah, I think it's all about the 'big heavy bike' thing; otherwise I'd be all over this NC750X.

Rogerborg - if you mean your riding a BMW 1200GS by 'GS', that's like 200kg+ isn't it. How do you find that in filtering through traffic jams or do you just wait in the queue?

I wish someone did a lightweight retro automatic motorcycle.

[angryjonny]

Buy an FZ1 and go everywhere in 1st gear.

[CyrilSwan]

[M.C]

[jazzinspace]

[M.C]

Spill counter: https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=4405853

I'm not an expert on Scootays, I do know the PCX and PS are fairly desirable (along with Vespa's etc.) so probably avoid them. Maybe an SH if you must have ABS?

[Alpineandy]

If you're just using it in London then a scooter is a sensible option, but unless you have some NSL/dual carriageway, you'd probably be better off with one smaller than 300cc.
There's no doubt that scooters reduce your testosterone and increase your oestrogen levels ( ) but they do make sense in heavy bumper to bumper traffic.
____________________
The above comment isn't necessarily the truth and anyone that says it is, is only correct if it's the truth or they're bigger than me.

[Rogerborg]

[WD Forte]

Camberwell to the City?
what's that 3-4 miles max?
In busy shitty traffic, you ll be lucky to hit 30

I agree a pretty Vespa 300 will scream "Nick me!"
and theivincockneybastardland being what it is,
I'd get a cheap shitter 125 scoot for that commute.

While I'm rantin on....
I recently fixed up a wee yiying tommy 125 for one of my lads
and for local run abouts it's fun
Light and easy to ride, no constant gear shifts and all that clutch grabbing/slipping malarkey
I definitely caught a touch o the ghey offn it I reckon
____________________
bikers smell of wee

[andyscooter]

vespa in London will be gone quicker then I type this reply

there is now cases of some insurers refusing to insure them in London as well (source is modern vespa forum)

as stated in other threads 22 vespas alone nicked in London per day


also t maxes now seem to vanish a lot
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gilera runner vxr200 (chavped)
if its spelt wrong its my fat fingers and daft auto correct on my tablet

[M.C]

[Teflon-Mike]

I've been driving auto-cars, pretty much exclusively for the last eighteen years. I actually find it a little ironic, that most auto's are big atuo-bahn bashers, that actually don't need t change gear very often anyway, whilst most city cars, that do, are almost exclusively manuals's 'for the economy', you don't get anyway, shunting twixt traffic lights! But still. When it comes to bikes, it's manual all the way.... and I think you are probably making a meal out of the matter, looking for a solution to something that's not, in the greater scheme of stuff, really a 'problem'. Bikes have a much more involved dynamic; they tilt to turn for starters, and left to their own devices try and fall over. You are an awful lot more 'involved' in the act of riding a bike than you are driving a car.

Car; bit like a play-station; you sit there, press buttons or waggle levers; one makes it go left one right, one forwards, one back, etc etc etc. On a bike; fist you have to prop it up until you get moving, then when you get your feet on the pegs, its'll wobble, and steer, without you pulling or pushing bars; as you move your legs up onto the pegs or as camber or bumps on the road make it wiggle, or side-winds try and tug it about.. actual act of steering, when you want to 'corner' also isn't a simple system of the car following where you point the front wheel; if you just turned the bars you'd fall off! Steering sets up a series of competing forces that make the bike try and fall over; so you will intuitively 'lean' to counter cornering force, that lean will also make the bike start to turn, an you actually don't need to physically moves the bars, they will sort of 'follow' of their own accord to point where you gave 'turned' the bike, by shifting your weight in or over the saddle.

Essentially there's a lot more going on, it's a lot more 'analog' where the stability provided by a four-wheel 'base' in a car constrains thigs so that they are a lot more 'digital' and there's a lot less 'happening' and certainly a lot less you as pilot have to 'do'.

On the big-bikes, as far as gearboxes go; they should have the excess of shear power, and the flexibility of power delivery, that to an extent they make the gearbox a little redundant. My 750 isn't the most powerful machine about, but, stick it in third, and it will pull to around 80mpg, whilst it will 'trickle' as low as perhaps 15mph; as long as I dont have to stop, cold pretty much leave the thing in 3rd and treat it like a twist & go....

My 125 doesn't have anywhere ear that flexibility; it will only do about 70mph flat out, and pretty much needs all it's five gears to get there... I actually enjoy that amount of 'involveent' from it hand having to do so much more work to get the most from it... but, round town? It will do 40mph in second, and again, trickle down to perhaps 4mph walking pace in that cog.... I only actually need 1st when pulling away from a dead stop; & I don't need to find it until I have stopped.

'Over-Shifting' is a very common newby trait.... bike has five or six gears, and learning 'gears' it seems something 'important' to do, and in a whelter of over-anxiety, when you dont know what to do, r what you should do, it's somethng you can, so many do, and so do far too much. Especially on little 4-stroke 125' that tend to have pretty grunlt little motor's , that eve though thy don't have much 'peak'power, do have quite a bit of low and id-range, and can often have more than enough to do 30mph in top!

Especially pronounced to existing car driver's used to much larger, lower revig car engines, insulated in a 'box' from the engine that's in another, with lots of 'lagging'; and a 'random access' gear lever, and an instructor who has probably taught them to get p to top ASAP 'for economy' and block-shift if they have to slow down.

On a bike you are sat over the engine; no boxes between you, and on an air-cooled engine like the GZ, not even an insulating water-jacket to damp it's noises, which will rev to around 10,000rpm, probably double, what many car engines will, especially desiesils.

Short shfting up the box, to 'tame' the revs, then feels the 'right' thing to do; doesn't feel as tortured or strained, or likely to blow up, and it's 'something' to do, and fills some of that "What do I do!" fret space...

Practically though, it's denying yourself throttle response and potential engine braking; it's making more work to go up gears you don't need to, more still to come back down them, often in a rush, likely none too smoothly.

This likely suggests that a auto would save a lot of 'work' and would make things 'better'.... a-n-d it probably would... but side-stepping the problem rather than solving it.

IF you used the gears better; didn't short shift; used the revs ad the throttle he response they offer, you wouldn't have much if any more work to do that if it were an 'auto', and more, you would have the 'control' afforded by direct drive, clutch out.

Which brings me to 'Slip'n'Drag', now oh-so-commonly taught on DAS courses on bigger bikes... which if you have been doing DAS you have probably been having drilled into you and is like nails down a chalk-board to me! It is almost utterly necessary, and these days so engrained through DAS training few even spot the 'irony' in the reasoning given for it if they even know it!

Suggestion is that it's a demonstration of 'fine slow speed machine control'.. slipping the clutch to access more revs ad more power and make the engine 'smoother'; then slipping the clutch to 'defeat' the gearbox and go slower than the gearing allows for engine revs, and holding the bike back on the brake to stop it getting away from you....

No.. just NO! this is NOT a demonstration of good fine machine control! It is the motorcycle equivalent of rubbing your tummy and patting your head! Jiggling three controls where you should only actually only need one... the throttle, to make bike move slower than it is designed to...

In sports that demand fine slow-speed control, and I have thirty odd years of trails riding under my belt, riding bikes slower than walking pace where mountain goats would fear to tread, and is ALL about fine slow-speed control... IF we want a bike to go THAT slow... we change the gearing, so that it will go that slow, 'clutch out'! I joke that my comp-trials bike, a 250, has a two speed gearbox, with four 'under-drives'! Final drive ratio is so low, flat out in third is only about 25mph!

But; that's good control; dong it clutch out, and exploiting that throttle response. verywhere else on trainng you are likely to get hastised for slipping the clutch or coasting and using the brakes, and told that with the clutch 'in' you don't have full control! But all of a sudden for slow-speed stuff through the cones, or on the U-turn that gets ignored, and suddenly sling the clutch is 'good' control?!?!? No, no it ISN'T! It is a fudge! Its a test trick to get students more easily doing slow speed maneuvers, especially the U-turn without wasting hours of expensive training time watching student get frustrated practicing riding it 'clan' clutch out, and making teacher 'trot' to keep up!

They 'like' to see to on test these days, to show the sort of of heat patting-tummy rubbing dexterity and co-ordination, motorcycles do demand elsewhere, BUT... it is pretty much just a test-trick, it is not necessary for every day riding (may be helpful from time to time occassionally!) But it is NOT 'good fine machine control!

Hoever, again, like over-shifting on a 125, t's something if y have bee dong DAS you have likely been taught to do, as course, that has made it a lot morework, and sggested, side-stepping the issue with an auto, would ten be a good idea to save the 'faff'.

BUT, in both instances, that 'faff' is unnecessary to start with. And you have that much more work to do anyway, an auto isn't really gong to save you an awful lot, and 'better riding technique' would save it anyway, AND give you far more 'control', far more of the time.

Auto's.. have an automatic clutch; on simple twist-and-go scooters, the 'centrifugal clutch' is basically a drum brake on the crank shaft; when the engine revs get up, centrifugal force throws the brake shoes out against the drum, friction transmitting drive to the transmission, which is often little more than a direct drive on many. But, point is, that as soon as you roll off the throttle, the centrifugal forces 'engaging' the clutch are removed; and the bike is 'coasting' and you have to do all your slowing on the brakes.. which if you did routinely on a manual, wold have instructor slapping your wrists and examiner shaking his head for not being 'in full control'!

On a small displacement Twist & Go scooter, with a centrifugal clutch, the final drive ratio is often actually 'fixed', it relies on the clutch slipping to get over the gear being a bit to tall to pull away, but then being tall enough to take the bike to top speed in that one gear on the rev-range. Variator transmissions vary the size of the pulleys depending on the engine revs and load, but not by very much.

My manual 125 with five speed transmission, 1st will take me to about 20mph, 2nd to almost 40, 3rd, to almost 60, and 4th, just about 70. 5th is pretty much an over-drive; and just knocks the revs back a bit at about 60, and I might eek an extra mph from t in top in more favorable conditions, but motor has run out of puff by then. But, thing is I can use those gears to match road-speed and access power higher up the rev-range, when needed to accelerate or climb hills, or for added engine braking.

On a twist and go; the variation varies the ratio between the equivalent of maybe 2nd and 4th on my manual, and it doesn't offer the same range to match power to road speed; or the same ability to get at higher rev power at lower speeds for acceleration or overtaking or climbing hills, and essentially pulling the clutch in, as soon as the bike is rolling faster then the engine, almost no 'engine braking'; its coasting, and you have to do it on the wheel brakes.

They are chucking away 'control' so what they might save n you not having to stiff the cog-box, you loose having to be more predictive on the throttle and brakes; They can be pretty good these days, but, it's swings and roundabouts; and they might make them 'easier' to ride.... IF you used a manual more effectively, to start with, and rode for response, then it's very mutable whether they offer any great saving very often.

On the bigger bikes? I could probably stick my 750 in 3rd gear and ride all day without having to stir the pedal, unless I stopped! It has that much more flexibility and tractability I can be very very lazy with it if I want.

Other than the Super-Scooters, which are a little bit of a mongrel, really there aren't any 'automatic' motorcycles. Honda's 'Duel Clutch Transmission' is a bit of an anomoly; it's an electrically shifted manual transmission, with an 'automatic' shift feature. Reports o it on the different models, are a bit marmite, you either love it or loath it, it seems, and a few ISTR have grumbled about the scratchiness of the electric clutch disengagement at slow speeds... rather like they have where electric gearboxes have been used in cars, that have that much more weight and engine flexibility to 'damp' such automatic harshness... on that one, the jury still seems to be out...

But, alleviating the 'faff' of having to shift, remains very muteable, when on a bigger bike, you shouldn't need to shift that much, especially around town, and you still have so much extra work to do anyway.

But for where you are at! I would say that t's something you shouldn't be worrying about. You are pondering purchace of first big-bike, not your only once and forever big bike, and I would suggest you follow more conventional pattern, and do the usual commuter-twin thing.

Something like a regulation CB500 or ER5 or whatever, maks a great start; they are 'cheap', for starters, and you can get going and see how you go with it. Get some miles under your belt; see what REALLY is a ball-ache on your daily commute, not just what you think may be..... CARS! will probably be the answer! BUSSES! another!

With the flexibility of a bigger motor, and a change of attitude to using revs rather than gears; getting 'predictive' in your rdng, advance planning, to avoid stopping so often; making road room, and using road room, to slow and open a gap before car ahead driving solely on the brake lamps of the car in-front of them reacts to them.. CAUTIOUS filtering, to keep things moving, make progress and avoid having to stop.. This will all do far more to make your journey 'easier' than an automatic transmission, and likely, do more with a manual transmission, riding for response, using the lower gears, and the revs, to let you exploit the transmission and the throttle response to get engine braking, not be so brake dependent, and have the throttle response to exploit gaps, opportunities and make more space, you cant 'quite' get into so niftily, on a T&G.

If it a question of you just 'wanting' and NC750, then fair enough; that what you want, why not; but if you are looking for reasons to justify why you should get one of them over a Versy or whatever, then, to my mind you are just kidding yourself a bit.

Bottom line is, that when the course ends and you ditch the L-Plates THAT is when the real learning starts; so go carry on learning, get some miles on a 'normal' big bike, learn what you like and what you dont, and THEN, ponder whether an alternative bit of technology is really worth much f anything to you in the problems and niggles you really have experienced, THEN may make more sense to experience that ad see if it really does do what you hope.

But here and now, personally I would say that the 'problems' you describe riding the marauder through traffic, would probably be better solved learning to get more out of the marauder! Beyond that, a 'better' 125 that's not quite so heavy or lethargic, thanks to its pseudo cruiser styling and raked out, feet-first geometry, would probably be more 'useful' in round town traffic; and all told, I have to say, for town work, I reach for the 125 keys, rather than the 750's! On bag, not over-shifting, riding predicatively, it's barely if any more 'work' than the 750, whilst it's smaller, lighter and nipper, and I can stick it into gaps I wouldn't even bother trying to man-handle the 750 into, and so I can make as good or better progress on the thing and still, and its STILL less work all told, despite a little ore cog-swapping!

But, her and now, what you need is road miles and experience to make up your own mind based on your own experience and preferences; rather than ours and nebulous ideas and notions and preconceptions.

So my advce? Dont sweat the small stuff; dont make a big deal out of something that's probably a non-issue; follow the herd get a conventional big commuter twn, with gears; go get miles under your belt on it; continue the 'learning' DAS has only just started and s far from finished when they hand you a licence, its your first big bike not your last.. enjoy, experiment, remember so much more is in the rider and technique, not the technology; so try looking at how you rde as hard as what you ride; ride for response; ride predictively; see where tht takes you, and whether in 6moths, you stll think you 'need' an auto, or whether the bulk of a big bike is beggng you down size to somethng lighter, or other use, is suggestig somethig completely different.. like a monster tourer or an utra sportsbike, and maybe even back to the bus to get to work, to save biking 'just' for the fun! Who knows, where it will take you... but don't rush, and don't try ridng roads you aren't even on yet, based on what you think will be around the next corner, not what you can see in this one!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Evil Hans]

Why, with his penchant for wordiness, did he ever shorten his name from Polytetrafluoroethylene Michael?
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Triumph Sprint ST 1050. And it's Red.

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[Rogerborg]

[jazzinspace]

wow, thanks for all your responses!

I don't want a push bike; I do have to travel across the city at the weekends but that's leisurely and not the main use of it. <3 motorbikes.

Teflon-Mike:

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[angryjonny]

[Rogerborg]

[Alpineandy]

[chris-red]