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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 12:02 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: Just got an untaxed vehicle notice through |
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Interestingly, it's for a bike that hasn't been on the road for 6 or more years now.
In fact it's for the pile of parts I was prosecuted for posessing as an uninsured vehicle for a couple of years back.
I haven't actually done a SORN on it.
I reckon there would be a good argument that I actually made a detailed declaration that the vehicle was off the road directly in front of a DVLA legal representative (who wasn't listening) in the magistrates court.
I'll SORN it anyway because I don't have the mental space to be dealing with the DVLA just now but such will be my assertion if they chance their hand.
Main reason I posted though is that they must be really scraping the bottom of the barrel to have come up with this one after all this time. Funds must be scarce. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Bloggsy |
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Bloggsy Spanner Monkey
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MarJay |
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MarJay But it's British!
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kramdra |
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kramdra World Chat Champion
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Posted: 13:31 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Does the 'prove i didn't send it' defence still work, when it comes to sorns? ____________________ A Guide To Powerbands |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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- Super Spammer
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- Super Spammer
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 16:45 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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And so:
Quote: | Dear Sir,
In reference to your letter dated 10/5/17, reference: UV1. Vehicle registration number ******
Please be aware that on the **** June 2013 I appeared before the South Lakeland (Cumbria) Magistrates Court to answer charges brought by The DVLA in reference to the insurance status of this vehicle.
I was found guilty of being the registered keeper of a vehicle which did not meet insurance requirements contrary to Section 144a(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
Those proceedings were carried out in open court in front of a bench of three magistrates and a DVLA legal representative who was prosecuting the case.
During those proceedings, I read out a pre-prepared statement which stated categorically that the vehicle in question was not being used and was not capable of being used on the road.
To directly quote my statement verbatim:
“I would like to make it totally clear that at no time has the motorcycle in question been kept, used or indeed been capable of being used on the road since July 2012”.
This may not have been noted at the time as your legal representative appeared to spend the entirety of the proceedings chewing gum with her mouth open and fiddling with her tablet PC rather than listening to the the person she was supposed to be prosecuting.
I consider the above statement, made to court, before your legal representative -who ought to have been listening even if she was not- to have fulfilled the requirement to make a declaration to a representative of the Secretary of State in accordance with The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, Schedule 4, Part I, section 2, paragraph 1.
I consider this matter to be closed. |
____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 18:43 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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For what would they prosecute you?
Not for using a vehicle without VED, they have no evidence of that.
And there's no offence of keeping a vehicle without VED either.
Seem to me that they'd have to prosecute you for keeping a vehicle that doesn't meet the continuous insurance requirements.
Which they've already done (dun dun DUNNNNN) for that vehicle. Double jeopardy? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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2 litre |
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2 litre Nova Slayer
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Karma :
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 07:43 - 21 May 2017 Post subject: |
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(Source)
DVLA wrote: | As part of the in-sourcing of our IT function, we have transferred technical staff with the necessary skills from the private sector into the civil service. |
Conceivably they recruited someone who asked "Why come we don't farm these millions of historical cases for fun and profit?"
Probably more significantly:
DVLA wrote: | Increase the number of cases going through the Single Justice[sic] Process[sic] (SJP) against the 2016-17 outturn, by being an early adopter of changing processes for Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service (HMCTS) |
The Single Justice Procedure is justice-lite. A single magistrate deciding the case on the papers without either party attending.
It's a wet dream for DVLA Collections. They can just churn out form-letter prosecutions without the cost of showing up. They don't really give a damn whether they win or lose, they just want a cheap way to blackmail people into paying the bribe to avoid a conviction.
There's no down side for them. In fact, whether any offence has even been committed at all is going to become increasingly irrelevant, once they get a taste for robo-prosecutions.
I strongly suspect this is going to turn into PoFA 2.0 and rather than saving the court system resources is going to result in a torrent of paper prosecutions.
Aside: Corporate report? Business plan? They're LARPing the private sector. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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ScaredyCat |
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ScaredyCat World Chat Champion
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- Super Spammer
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P. |
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P. Red Rocket
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 14:17 - 21 May 2017 Post subject: |
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stinkwheel wrote: | mpd72 wrote: |
This is where people are going wrong. If it's still currently not SORN'ed, it's currently breaking the rules right here, right now, no matter how many years it's sat in a shed. |
Well, in your oppinion it does. I can find nowhere it's been defined. One could equally argue the actual offence was comitted on the date the keeper failed to tax/insure. I'm not sure if it's actually come up and would need to be tested in court.
They use the term "Index offence" in the document Roger linked to. Be interesting to have a definition of that.
In my initial prosecution, they used the date on their first request for an out of court settlement as their "start" date on the witness statement and had me up in front of the beak (just) within six months of that date suggesting they were at least tacitly aware a time limit could apply.
There has to be a limit. When does the offence occur? It has to really be a single offence, they can't prosecute me for every day I didn't have a SORN prior to my conviction as a seperate offence. |
Why does the offence have to be for an instant moment years ago? You've been committing the offence all the time until you SORN it.
When you received the letter, you were still committing the offence.
I have 6 in sheds and garages, but made a point of making sure all were SORN for this very reason. I got done once, when you had to SORN every year and I forgot to renew one. They even admitted an error on their system mean't I never got sent a reminder. The fine still stood though.
Best of luck, but I suspect you'll have to pay it. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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ScaredyCat |
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ScaredyCat World Chat Champion
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dydey90 |
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dydey90 World Chat Champion
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 11:34 - 24 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Hi
I also had a threatening letter through from them. For a bike I bought a couple of years ago and which I have never had on the road.
I have a confirmation email from 31st August 2013 to say that I had declared it SORN. It does claim to only be for 12 months, but the rules changed in December 2013 so that SORN did not need to be redeclared.
Question is, is this just normal incompetence on their part or are they trying something on.
Maybe I should complain to the data protection registrar.
All the best
Katy ____________________ Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 338 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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