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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerian95 wrote:

I still wanna hear Percy's beef with the crusades?


All killing's bad.

Quote:

If ever a Christian from these groups committed an act like this there would be public outcry, it'd be considered shocking from the vast vast majority Christians- it would be so condemned.


But the current situation isn't Islam v Christianity, it's Islam v the West.

Westerners have done equally bad things, e.g. NATO soldiers treating local non-threatening villagers like absolute dirt in their own country. Remember those videos showing blokes tied up, naked, treated like animals? Or the countless testimonies from ex US marines who said the entire thing was a fucked up trigger-happy mess? There was some outcry, but others seemed quite happy with pulling out all the stops and made allowances for whatever bad shit went on over there because it was a 'warzone' and as long as they were a sandnigger they were an enemy.

I'm not diagreeing with your points about ISIS folk being bad. I'm disagreeing with your point about how black and white it is, specially how you seem think our side has been whiter than white from day one.

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All these sympathisers like Percy love to say we need to find a solution but they don't actually propose any feasible solution.


Cool I'm a sympathiser, that's an original label.

I would stop all military action in the middle east and stop immigration from that region for at least a decade or two, including tourist visas, work visas, the lot. Give the current Muslim population of the UK time to assimilate and become fully British without any renewed sense of connection to their cousins in Arabia. Much easier to achieve that after Brexit as well because nobody could sneak in on an EU visa or passport.

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
M.C wrote:


"A mural in Tripoli paying tribute to fighters from Manchester who joined the 17 February Martyrs' Brigade during Libya's revolution against Gaddafi"


Shit artists, that's shit graffiti, not even up to the standards of the mongiest council estate graffiti merchant. At least the Irish could paint decent murals. Obviously something else the Christians do better than Muslims. God is obviously on our side. Thumbs Up
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lihp
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PostPosted: 13:15 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

But the current situation isn't Islam v Christianity, it's Islam v the West.


Except it isn't.

IS are killing other muslims who don't tow their extremist view, regardless of what type of Islam, in Islamic countries too.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Polarbear wrote:

Oh, and Itchys comments about Leopald 2 are ludicrous. It was nothing to do with Christianity, j



Nuffin to do with religion X bruv.

Sounds terribly familiar...

Like I said before was he a genocidal maniac who just happened to be Christian.

Or was a a Christian compelled to commit terrible acts of genocide.

Mark Twain wrote about it and says he only wanted to bring the benefits of Christianity to the savages.

Here's the thing though. If you apply this test to Leopold and others say Dylann roof. Then you must equally apply it to others too.


What utter shite, Nothing in the Congo atrocities had any roots in religion, it was all how they treated their rubber plant workers (as slaves). You can't just allocate any major massacre/atrocity to a religion because the boss man was of that religion.

If you say that then you can argue the 1st WW was a religous war fought between Christians as all the boss men were Christians. Rolling Eyes Of course it wasn't.

Completely different to someone saying I'm going to kill you all because my God told me to kill people of a different religion.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
[Tefsplanation follows]

It's not trivial to tie together disparate pieces of information into a whole pictures. The first issue is: who are they talking about?

Reports from different people in different places at different times with just a name to go by aren't obviously attributable to the same individual - particularly one from a culture where the names people go by can change more often than the weather.

However, it is possible. Some very clever people work on resolving information into things. They certainly resolved it quickly enough after he went kersplode, to the point where it's been leaked to the media.

The problem, I believe, is that once you give intelligence agencies tools that create pretty network diagrams, they like looking at them more than disrupting them.

It's all gather and analyse and find connections and build bigger and bigger networks, and sort entities into core and edge actors. Digital thumb-tacks and string, OCD heaven.

When it comes to actually kicking in doors, not so keen. It's hot or wet or cold out there, and some of those beastly rotters don't just give up and surrender, the cads.

That's just not good enough when even the most peripheral actor can take centre stage at any moment. Decapitation strategies work against hierarchical organisations, but Salafi jihadism is a writhing mass of tentacles.

[/Tefsplanation]



That is all true, but its tangential what I am getting at.

Why, after every attack, do we hear that they were already on the watch list (to a greater or lesser extent)? Because the security services are suffering from a chronic case of information overload.

They are spending so much time, energy and money trying to watch everybody who frequents r/Iamatotes4ReelSnackbar, that they are drowning in irrelevant details.

I would posit that the way to solve this problem is not to hire half the population to spy on the other half, but to get over this obsession with collecting all the data on everyone and do their actual job (as you detailed above) in a more focussed/sensible way.

Of course I am just playing wish fulfilment at this point, the shrieking for Big Brother to come and keep us all safe has already begun.

Rogerborg wrote:

Beyond reasonable doubt is the standard for conviction in a court. It's a piss poor metric for action when Salafi jihadists are deliberately targeting children.


That is all down to the the services reluctance to act. They can already hold you for 96 hours without charge, if they can't get the information together in that time-frame to bring charges (which they must have since they arrested you), what are they playing at?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


You can't just allocate any major massacre/atrocity to a religion because the boss man was of that religion.


Completely different to someone saying I'm going to kill you all because my God told me to kill people of a different religion.


That's precisely the point. When one of group X does something. Can the action be attributed to a quality of group X? Or just that he happened to be a member of group X?

If so, why isn't Dylann Roof considered to be a Christian terrorist? He was actively religious. His attack was also politically motivated too.

Yet all X are not Y in this case.

While for other groups all X are Y.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerian95 wrote:
Doh! Was it religiously motivated?
Even if it was (it wasn't) where could he tell you in good book he was referring to in his actions?
Our good friends 2500 miles away are happy to tell you the exactly what sentences in their books!



Except how do you know the Manchester attack was also religiously motivated too?

Other than he's a Muslim = must be a religious motivation behind it. So you are automatically making the assumption.

When the current proposed theories are actually about revenge.

As again you forget Vietnam.

Most of the Viet Cong joinees didn't give a toss about what Ho Chi Minhn stood for and joined up to get revenge on atrocities committed by the SVA and also the US military.



Yeah.... so here's something incredibly radical...

You consider a persons character by their actions and deeds... because yeah... this is exactly how the opposition operates by painting an entire group of people something even though people and individuals are massively more complex than this.
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Last edited by Itchy on 16:33 - 27 May 2017; edited 1 time in total
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Except how do you know the Manchester attack was also religiously motivated too?

Other than he's a Muslim = must be a religious motivation behind it. So you are automatically making the assumption.

When the current proposed theories are actually about revenge.

Revenge for granting his family asylum?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Revenge for granting his family asylum?



The daily fail says his friend was murdered last year, similarly his sister says something about seeing people dying as a result of airstrikes in Syria.


I dunno... look at this thread here. Quite a lot of people seeking revenge on people who are wholly unrelated to this incident.


What's that? That maybe the them in the them and us aren't really all that different after all.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
What are the odds of that eh? Almost every terrorist attack happen to be a radical follower of a minority religion.



Lets use some stats:

15 non Muslim attacks
18 Muslims (3 were done by the same person)
3 Indeterminate.


February 18, 2010 Andrew Joseph Stack
March 4, 2010 John Patrick Bedell
May 1 2010 Faisal Shahzad
May 20, 2010 Jerry and Joseph Kane
September 1, 2010 James J. Lee,
October 2010 Farooque Ahmed
October 29, 2010 Illinois Chicago, Illinois Cargo
October 17, 2010 - November 2, 2010 Yonathan Melaku 50-50
November 25, 2010 Mohamed Osman Mohamud
May 25, 2011 Mohanad Shareef Hammadi and Waad Ramadan Alwan
August 5, 2012 Wade Michael Page,
February 3–12, 2013 Christopher Dorner
April 15, 2013 Tamerlan Tsarnaev,
April 16, 2013 Bioterrorism Washington, D.C. April 2013 ricin letters: Two letters, s
November 1, 2013 2013P aul Anthony Ciancia
December 13, 2013 Terry Lee Loewen,
April 13, 2014 Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr., a neo-Nazi neo-Pagan,
April 27, 2014 Shootings Ali Muhammad Brown
June 1, 2014 Shootings Ali Muhammad Brown
June 8, 2014 Shooting Nevada Las Vegas, Nevada Jerad and Amanda Miller,
June 25, 2014 Shootings Ali Muhammad Brown,
September 12, 2014 Eric Frein
September 24, 2014 Alton Alexander Nolen
October 23, 2014 Zale Thompson
December 2014 The Guardians of Peace"
May 3, 2015 Elton Simpson, Nadir Hamid Soofi, and Abdul Malik Abdul Kareem
June 2, 2015 Usaama Rahim and David Wright
June 17, 2015 Dylann Roof
July 16, 2015 Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez
November 4, 2015 Stabbing Faisal Mohammad
November 27, 2015 Robert Dear
December 2, 2015 Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik
January 7, 2016 Edward Archer
February 11, 2016 Mohamed Barry :
June 12, 2016 Omar Mateen,
August 20, 2016 Stabbings Dahir A. Adan
September 17–19, 2016 Bombings Ahmad Khan Rahimi
November 28, 2016 Abdul Razak Ali Artan
March 20, 2017 ames Harris Jackson


Except numerous others are left out:

July 23, 2015 Lafayette, Louisiana: John Russell House white supremacist shoots up a cinema

Date: Nov. 24, 2015Minnesota Allen Scarsell

Nov. 28, 2014 Austin, Texas Larry Steve McQuilliams,

April 13, 2014 Kansas City, Missouri Frazier Glenn Cross

This changes the stats a little

18 non Muslim attacks
18 Muslims attacking others (3 were done by the same person)
4 Indeterminate.


UK:


2013, 29 April to 12 July: Pavlo Lapshyn attacks.
2013, 22 May: Adebowale ordered to serve at least 45 years.[35]
2015, Muhaydin Mire
2016, 16 June. Thomas Mair,
2017, 22 March: 2017 - Khalid Masood,
2017, 22 May: 2017


4 out of 6 conclusive right?

Except numerous instances aren't counted:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38962931 Neo Nazi who makes a bomb given counselling
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40059351 Damon Smith

There is the other guy who had an armoury and wanted to shoot up the school, but he wasn't considered a terrorist.

OK OK so you'll try the angle 13% of the population provide 2 out of 3 terrorist suspects.

Except see the above clear examples of terrorism.

Terrorism being defined as violence with a political motive are not declared terrorism at all. So it's not half as clear cut or close to the definition of ALL you're using.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to ask:

Why do people give the slightest fuck about terrorism? All this talk of allocating resource to stop Muslim radicalisation, massive inconveneience to people on a daily basis, discussion of impractical and faintly ridiculous policies to stop muslims entering the UK and for what? A grand total of 90 deaths between 2000 and 2015, plus maybe another 30 since then?

Take this latest attack for instance. Yes, 30 odd people or whatever died, and that's terrible, but is it even newsworthy? In the same day, 450 died from Cancer, 1 died from MRSA, and 5 died on the road (all estimates based onannual incidences - 2014 or 2015 data). People die and that's terrible, but it happens.

Resource should be allocated on probability of meaningful results and potential size of the prize (in this case lives saved), and on both counts allocating £12Bn of funding to 'solve' terrorism is just stupid. Allocate the funding to curing cancer or improving road safety. You've a better chance of making headway there than stopping terrorism.

Anyway, looping back to terrorism, it's a valid question; Why do we see these attacks?

My suggestion is that we have so many terrorist attacks because they work. This latest attack has cost the organsation behind the attack literally nothing - a couple of grand for materials, possibly a few flights, food and incentives to recruit this guy and that's about it.

But it's got them a huge amount of publicity, and that's their goal.

The attack has had precisely zero influence on this country's ability to function, no target of tactical or military value was eliminated and no crucial infrastructure was harmed. They didn't even try to off the celebrity from the Great Satan.

And yet, irrational in terms of assessing risk and probability though it may be, people are geuinely concerned about terrorism.

This has to trigger a government response, which in turns raises the profile of the attack even further, makes the government look weak and ineffective when another atack inevitably happens and makes people even more nervous.

Of course, the constant 24hr news updates don't help. The attack was the main headline on every news network on the day, and for most of the week following, and still is. How many words and pictures have been strewn around social media relating to the attack?

So, what do we do about it? Well, personally, I'm taking a pragmatic view on this. I take the view that dying is an occupational hazard of life and that I'm not going to worry overmuch. Perhaps we, and our government overlords should do the same and allocate resource based on logic and material benefit, not mass hysteria over what is, at the end of the day, pretty far down the list of dangers to UK citizens...
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
I have to ask:

Why do people give the slightest fuck about terrorism?

Take this latest attack for instance. Yes, 30 odd people or whatever died, and that's terrible, but is it even newsworthy?


You shouldn't as Hetz said it numerous posts ago.

It's just another method to divide and conquer you.

Hell stairs kill 1000 a year. So stairs are a much more effective method of killing lots of people.

Food poisoning kills 600 a year.

Motorbikes are more dangerous than terrorists.


Judging by the calls for a disproportionate response. Stairs, food and motorbikes being 10-100 times deadlier should be rounded up and deported.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
M.C wrote:
Revenge for granting his family asylum?



The daily fail says his friend was murdered last year, similarly his sister says something about seeing people dying as a result of airstrikes in Syria.


I dunno... look at this thread here. Quite a lot of people seeking revenge on people who are wholly unrelated to this incident.


What's that? That maybe the them in the them and us aren't really all that different after all.

So the children at that concert killed his friend?
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
I have to ask:

Why do people give the slightest fuck about terrorism?



You've still got a better chance of winning the lottery than being killed by terrorism in the UK.


mpd72 wrote:
They sound like a nice bunch of chaps. I'll have to invite them round to my next BBQ. No pork of course.


MI5 invited them to go and help fight and told them there'd be no repercussions when they came back so that were 'nice chaps' then, apparently.

Polarbear wrote:

Shit artists, that's shit graffiti, not even up to the standards of the mongiest council estate graffiti merchant. At least the Irish could paint decent murals. Obviously something else the Christians do better than Muslims. God is obviously on our side. Thumbs Up


It's Tripoli and they probably don't have the extra time to laze about painting pretty pictures so that they can be critiqued by BCF's professional artists.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

Do me a favour. In Europe the vast majority are committed by Muslims.
Where on earth did you dig out that pile of shite?


The GTD is a good place to start research on that.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
The growing threat of Radical Muslims slaughtering innocent people is fine, because natural accidents are more prolific.


I didn't say it was fine. But if you're calling for extermination based on such small numbers then something that killed 1000 times more should have an even bigger response. It generally proves Hetz divide and conquer theory in action. Like how you always say OMG immigrants!!!!! Everything is their fault... you know like ignoring the ones who are really looting your pocket going as far as defending them. In fact you're the perfect example. You're just using this as an excuse to promote your own innate tendencies which you have demonstrated numerous times. Like mass murder of brown people oh nuclear weapons you said.

You know like post where you labelled all Indian doctors unfit to practise in the NHS. You generally don't need to pretend as everybody can see this quite evidently that you're a genocidal racist.

Those are not MY words those are your words you said a few posts ago about using nuclear weapons and extermination.

The irony which you probably won't see is that if you look in the mirror then you're not a million miles away from the group you loathe.

Think about it, you're calling for mass murder of a certain group or their total subjugation.

Those you consider your enemies are calling for mass murder of a certain group or their total subjugation.

Funny that.



mpd72 wrote:
You know what, I hope someone you know does in an attack, so you can come on here and defend the goat fuckers.


I was at the 1996 bombing of Manchester. I and everybody I knew except for David were completely meh about it actually.




But go on, continue to keep making the mistakes you've been making. Go bomb the middle East then be completely surprised when some of it blows back on you. Come on even a child knows that if you kick a dog you may well get bitten and while you may try distance yourselves from atrocities in the past. The blow back may not be today or tomorrow. Or even the individuals who were directly affected (sound familiar) but even Christian literature teaches reaping what you sow.


But yeah when your side does it, then it doesn't count right?




There are many atrocities in the present that seem to be completely OK for some reason.


In fact I'll give you a great example.


Some smart so and so thought it clever to lock up all the nutjob radicals in one big prison in Iraq I think it was Bucca. The same smart so and so then thought it would be smart to tie them up humiliate and torture them while taking pictures of them. A great number of these people went onto take over the organisation that became IS.

Not so smart to treat those people like crap now is it?
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asta1
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 27 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


There's some right shite which comes out of your sound hole, but that's up there with the best of it.

The growing threat of Radical Muslims slaughtering innocent people is fine, because natural accidents are more prolific.

You know what, I hope someone you know does in an attack, so you can come on here and defend the goat fuckers.

More people die of RTA's in a year, but if it was the same minority make of car every time, we'd stop importing it.


Not sure if that was in response to me or Itchy, but just to clarify. I'm not in any way condoning or attempting to justify terrorism. It's clearly a despicable and cowardly act.

What I am however saying is that the reletive threat of terrorism to the UK citizen should be considered in the context of allocating funds to counter it.

The government should allocate tax money in the most effective way to protect the citizens of this country based on the available stats. All I'm saying is that there are issues that are demonstrably more serious- they kill more people per annum, and that in light of that, the current focus on terrorism as The Big Threat is slightly illogical.

As a counter to your point, why is it more tragic that 30 people are killed in an act of terrorism than 30 people being killed on the road or in a hospital bed?

As for the RTA point, there are categories of drivers, minorities if you will, who are measuably more at risk - the inexperienced, motorcyclists etc, and many do say these people should be banned from the road or otherwise restricted - the 6 point 2 year probation for recently passed drivers and the A2 licence category spring to mind...
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 6 years, 333 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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