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hellkat
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never could tell my left from my right.

You're trying to teach grandma to suck eggs, Borgie.

If you care to recall, I'm one of the few who actually quite liked Kradmelder, despite his controversial opinions. I don't naturally tend toward liberalism, so arguing a diversity point for me is pretty rocky territory, I'm likely to creep back into my comfortable well-fed white enclave when I get bored of talking about poor people. But the feeling that I could only be two steps, a tumble and a broken hip away from being one myself, keeps my nerve endings jangling with the kind of "occasional conscience" that such anxiety brings. I'm as selfish as the next person, and don't really want to have the hassle or expense of owning a full-blown social conscience, or maybe having one is just too much damn hard work.

All I know is that every time I go past that building, I feel a deep ache that I cannot explain, a call from the souls of the people who never had a chance, because circumstances kept pushing them into a place they probably didn't want to be anyway. Sad
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
As it is, I can;lt afford a flat in a block in an areas like Grenfell.

I'm sure someone amongst us can arrange for you to be housed in Grenfell Twisted Evil
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M.C
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
All I know is that every time I go past that building, I feel a deep ache that I cannot explain, a call from the souls of the people who never had a chance, because circumstances kept pushing them into a place they probably didn't want to be anyway. Sad

Pickup mpd and take him on a pro bono trip to Grenfell Very Happy

mpd72 wrote:
Ah, so rent in Kensington and Chelsea is really just as cheap as Middlesborough or Manchester. I never realised that.

Bollocks, it's one of the most expensive areas in the country to live. Many middle income earners can't afford it, so why are we housing asylum seekers and immigrants with no intention of working there. on tax payers money?

Who said it was? I don't how much it's but based on people I know who live in nicer parts of London (N1 etc.) it won't be anywhere near £1500, I'd be surprised if social rents are much beyond £500 p/m in K&C.

Your logic extends to all of London then, and if/when that happens low earners won't bother commuting in for work.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Pickup mpd and take him on a pro bono trip to Grenfell

I'm always happy to meet people from BCF Laughing
I suspect mpd72 and I would get on perfectly well, on occasion I might actually find myself thinking exactly what he is saying. I'm just not normally engaged enough to be bothered saying much of any depth.

hellkat
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
talking about poor people. But the feeling that I could only be two steps, a tumble and a broken hip away from being one myself

Say the word and I'll smother you with a pillow so that you never have to endure Poor. Surprisingly cheap rates, too.


mpd72 wrote:
When you enter the real world of renting as an adult, out of the teat of mums flat, you're in for a shock fella.

Called it. Razz


M.C wrote:
if there was no social housing there wouldn't be grunts doing the service jobs London needs.

Subsidised housing is allocated on the basis of worth, rather than need, you say? Thinking

If there was no subsidy, there would be no minions, London would grind to a halt, people would flee (like a tumour metastasising), and demand and prices would drop until the situation resolved itself.

It would hurt in the short term, it would be suicidal for the regime of the moment, but it would remove the need for ever spiralling subsidy with no end or limit in sight.

M.C wrote:
To begrudge the inhabitants of council estates is frankly retarded

Well argued, now I feel much better about it.

M.C wrote:
...and then you'll have to find someone else to blame Thumbs Up

We'll always have die Juden.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sod off, if I found a 2b/r property for 1500 notes in K&C I'd not be telling you about it, I'd be ordering the removal van for myself to move there Laughing

The operative expression, of course, is "social rents"

ALL social landlords artificially suppress the cost of rentals of their properties.
Its not because they can, its because they have to.
This is not just in London. It happens everywhere in the UK.

Social landlords (particularly housing associations) don't like it either, but they have to do it.

So the "OMG-WTF-£££" price that you are shouting about, or indeed, similar prices given by the media when having a benefits-scrounger freak-out session, may well be an open-market rental price, but its not the price a council ever offers its residents. Those are artificially suppressed because they have to be.

The government (not the tabloid-reading tax-paying public) says so.

Blame George Peabody, damn philanthropists, getting bloody busy back in Victorian days, how very dare they.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Say the word and I'll smother you with a pillow so that you never have to endure Poor. Surprisingly cheap rates, too.


You're too kind, sir.
Laughing
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 16:36 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Point of order, "expensive", not nice.


I would quite definitely describe the areas immediately around Cottesmore Gardens, or Christchurch Street, or Chelsea Square, as "nice".

It may be gentrified, but there still reside similarly "interesting" and real people as anywhere else.

Older people admittedly, but not necessarily outrageously wealthy ones. Surprisingly nice normal middle-class people who have lived there since before it got ridiculously out of price-range for normal people over the last 40-50 years.

Having said that, if I lived there ... and someone like me moved in, I'd be pretty damn pissed off Laughing

I'd be worried about them suggesting in snide posh voices, why I didn't move to Onslow Square instead Laughing

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hellkat
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno.
Because they have social responsibility/protocol/mandate they have to stick to?

Why don't you attend some of the think tanks and seminars and ask them, if you are so bothered?

The Smith Institute have an interesting one at the Labour Party Conference in Brighton later this month.

I'm seriously considering attending, except the commies probably won't let me through their doors without a membership card Laughing
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Show me a 2 bedroon flat for rent at under £1,500 in Kensington and Chelsea.
The cheapest, which isn't a flat share of a 2 bedroom flat, is £1,517 a month on RightMove.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E61229&maxBedrooms=2&minBedrooms=2&sortType=1&includeLetAgreed=false

When you enter the real world of renting as an adult, out of the teat of mums flat, you're in for a shock fella.

Christ I am wasting my breath with you. No one in social housing in Grenfell's being charged £1500 p/m, stop conflicting social and private rents. I've explained how moronic it's to believe that because social rents are below market value it's somehow a deficit to the taxpayer. I wonder what the actual figures are for a block like Grenfell (over its life), that includes the 70s/80s/90s when they were cesspits for crime and deprivation.

Furthermore it's the lack of social housing that inflates private rents, particularly at the lower end of the market. You berate a system you don't even understand.

Rogerborg wrote:
Subsidised housing is allocated on the basis of worth, rather than need, you say? Thinking

No, the days of a single working person getting a council flat are well gone, now you need to have 14 children. The people I work with (who live on their own) are older, younger people (and I mean even 30-40s) are typically in house shares/bedsits or still live at home.
When the older generation go there will be a void. All the young(er) people would have already left.

Quote:
If there was no subsidy, there would be no minions, London would grind to a halt, people would flee (like a tumour metastasising), and demand and prices would drop until the situation resolved itself.

It would hurt in the short term, it would be suicidal for the regime of the moment, but it would remove the need for ever spiralling subsidy with no end or limit in sight.

It depends if you're talking about actual subsidies or the imaginary ones mpd believes in. I suspect it's the latter.
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?



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PostPosted: 17:19 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
Plus benefits, plus London weighting. How do they afford London rents then?

Is my point. London is not affordable for many (most?) Londoners.

Stop the subsides, let it all collapse. Nothing of value will be lost.


But who else would pay for your prescriptions and university fees?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Is my point. London is not affordable for many (most?) Londoners.

Stop the subsides, let it all collapse. Nothing of value will be lost.


But who else would pay for your prescriptions and university fees?

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/Nicola-Sturgeon-788043.jpg

Apparently...
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like how her llittle mouth is in the shape of a love heart.
The singlemost attractive thing about her.
Is she saying "See You, Jimmy!" do you think?
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Ah, so rent in Kensington and Chelsea is really just as cheap as Middlesborough or Manchester. I never realised that.


Thats because you don't think. Thumbs Up

Now think for the length of this thread. If rent is made up of the actual costs of housing then it is pretty much the same regardless of where in the country you are. There are fluctuations in building costs due to wages and delivery of materials but the actual costs is within a few percentage points of everywhere else.

Now Kensington and Chelsea you are paying a premium except in social housing so it isn't that social housing is subsidised, it isn't. It just doesn't have a large profit margin placed over the top of it.

I hope that helps explain things for you. Thumbs Up
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a slight effort of returning to the thread objective, I've got an interesting question for the audience.

(well, its interesting to me, but probably not to most other people)

IF you were in a situation where you had to live in social housing, and you were given the opportunity to accept ONE property - but in a tower block - so you had a choice of which floor in a tower like Grenfell, what floor would you choose to live on?

The ground floor, or something above the 5th?
What's the highest you would go?

I would be in two minds.
* I used to be, like, nope, got to stay on the ground floor, cos I want to be able to get to my bike/see my bike so nobody nicks it (pointless, cos they will nick it anyway, if they really want to and you'e not secured it sufficiently).
* But recently (prior to Grenfell) I had started to consider house-swapping with someone who had a flat above 10th floor, because I had taken a fancy to living somewhere with an amazing view, and there would be no way I could ever afford the likes of Ballymore et al.

Since Grenfell, of course, I've kinda gone off the high-rise-living idea, but occasionally that little demon still sits on my shoulder and whispers in my ear.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
In a slight effort of returning to the thread objective, I've got an interesting question for the audience.

(well, its interesting to me, but probably not to most other people)

IF you were in a situation where you had to live in social housing, and you were given the opportunity to accept ONE property - but in a tower block - so you had a choice of which floor in a tower like Grenfell, what floor would you choose to live on?

The ground floor, or something above the 5th?
What's the highest you would go?

I would be in two minds.
* I used to be, like, nope, got to stay on the ground floor, cos I want to be able to get to my bike/see my bike so nobody nicks it (pointless, cos they will nick it anyway, if they really want to and you'e not secured it sufficiently).
* But recently (prior to Grenfell) I had started to consider house-swapping with someone who had a flat above 10th floor, because I had taken a fancy to living somewhere with an amazing view, and there would be no way I could ever afford the likes of Ballymore et al.

Since Grenfell, of course, I've kinda gone off the high-rise-living idea, but occasionally that little demon still sits on my shoulder and whispers in my ear.

What floor did the fire start on? Very Happy I wouldn't like to live above say 6 floors up, although you're right about the views. I always wonder why people pay to go on the London Eye or the Orbit when you can get a similar view from a block of flats (probably won't pass as a family day out).
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it started on the 4th floor if I remember correctly.

When I lived back in Auckland for a year in the late 1990s, I worked on the 35th floor of a building. It was awesome, except only the partners (law firm) got the outside offices with the view, so as a plebby legal sec, I only got to look out them when I took work into their offices. Thing is, in Auckland, you get a 1000% better view at ground level than you do in most places in London, so I wasn't all that fussed. If I lived in an office with a view like that I'd never do any work Laughing

For some reason which I have now forgotten, the whole of the power grid for Central Auckland Business District went out for about 10 days, luckily I wasn't at work when it did, but the thought of having to walk up (or down) 35 floors was daunting, and I realised if there was a fire I would be proper fucked. (They decanted us into offices in an outer suburb where there was power)

I'd probably go up a dozen floors, but not much more.
I used to think I wanted a garden, but nowadays a bunch of pots on a terrace with a decent view would do me just fine.

If the lifts went out, I'd either stay up there, or stay at someone else's house 'til they were fixed Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
But who else would pay for your prescriptions and university fees?

Die Ju - oh, you know.

It "worked" for Venezuela, right? Whistle
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Falco
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
chris-red wrote:
But who else would pay for your prescriptions and university fees?

Die Ju - oh, you know.




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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:59 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do they want to move from the flat?
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 10:04 - 22 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

When we have thousands of empty houses in some areas up North, why are we housing Gimmedats in the most expensive areas in the country, where most middle income earners can't afford to live?


Because although it makes lots of sense financially, those Gimmedats will riot shouting 'Social cleansing' the moment you try it... They WANT to live in central London and whilst they're not picking up the tab why the hell would they care? Rolling Eyes

I'm hoping all those middle earners move out due to the horrendous expense and let these Gimmedat populations concentrate to the point we just wall it off and declare it foreign territory?
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