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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

By "wrong", you actually mean mpd is "absolutely correct".


This is just for you this one. Let's look at the important bits:
I doubt fireproof cladding was a legal requirement.

It wasn't a legal requirement to have it installed, no. But to install that particular type of cladding, I can almost guarantee you (and of course I can't be 100% sure, just for the nitpickers), will be otherwise in accordance with Approved Doc B for high rises.

The only real differences are that it's only a 2 story building.

Ok where to start. Since we've mentioned windows lets go with those. Nope, they're not fireproof, but they're not a major contributing factor to fire load and development hazard. Cladding, composite panels and the like with either XPS, EPS, PUR etc filling is. It's been campaigned about since the late 80's by the FPA because they recognised it as pretty much awful even in commercial buildings where there wasn't considered a particular threat to life. Fire brigades started a practice of not entering buildings constructed of such materials due to risk of collapsing panel liners, melting droplets of insulation material, inhalation risks and lots of other nasties. It's well established that composite panelling is extremely quick to ignite compared to other more traditional building materials and, once it does, you've got a real fight on your hands to save the building.

The design of the cladding will almost certainly be called into question too, since it is likely it created a flue effect spreading the fire much more effectively once established. Most domestic houses don't have this feature, and indeed when insulation material is fitted to external walls of houses it tends to be flush mounted to the brick and then capped / collared at all junctures and service breaks.

In short - and back to my original point:
1) I will be amazed if the building met Approved Doc B regulations.
2) Approved Doc B in itself is an abomination of building design standards which was campaigned heavily against, and with good reason, by the FPA and I'm sure other organisations more interested in property protection.
3) 1 and 2 above are probably why that side is being washed out by luvvie stuff.

mpd's house isn't a lot like Grenfell and UPVC windows aren't a lot like composites.


Grenfell had replacement aluminium windows, but feel free to carry on showing what shite you come out with.

I’m still waiting for you to disprove any of the facts I posted. And you think i’m The one who tries to pick a fight in an empty room?
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Last edited by mpd72 CPT on 21:13 - 18 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
arry wrote:

This is just for you this one. Let's look at the important bits:
I doubt fireproof cladding was a legal requirement.

It wasn't a legal requirement to have it installed, no. But to install that particular type of cladding, I can almost guarantee you (and of course I can't be 100% sure, just for the nitpickers), will be otherwise in accordance with Approved Doc B for high rises.

The only real differences are that it's only a 2 story building.

Ok where to start. Since we've mentioned windows lets go with those. Nope, they're not fireproof, but they're not a major contributing factor to fire load and development hazard. Cladding, composite panels and the like with either XPS, EPS, PUR etc filling is. It's been campaigned about since the late 80's by the FPA because they recognised it as pretty much awful even in commercial buildings where there wasn't considered a particular threat to life. Fire brigades started a practice of not entering buildings constructed of such materials due to risk of collapsing panel liners, melting droplets of insulation material, inhalation risks and lots of other nasties. It's well established that composite panelling is extremely quick to ignite compared to other more traditional building materials and, once it does, you've got a real fight on your hands to save the building.

The design of the cladding will almost certainly be called into question too, since it is likely it created a flue effect spreading the fire much more effectively once established. Most domestic houses don't have this feature, and indeed when insulation material is fitted to external walls of houses it tends to be flush mounted to the brick and then capped / collared at all junctures and service breaks.

In short - and back to my original point:
1) I will be amazed if the building met Approved Doc B regulations.
2) Approved Doc B in itself is an abomination of building design standards which was campaigned heavily against, and with good reason, by the FPA and I'm sure other organisations more interested in property protection.
3) 1 and 2 above are probably why that side is being washed out by luvvie stuff.

mpd's house isn't a lot like Grenfell and UPVC windows aren't a lot like composites.


Grenfell had replacement aluminium windows, but feel free to carry on showing what shite you come out with.


HAHAHAHAHAHA

From the person who said the Vegas shooting was an ISIS terror cell with a white guy fall guy? Laughing Laughing

Besides, he said it wasn't for you. No wonder you forge them tax returns, with your inability to read.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 22:38 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

By "wrong", you actually mean mpd is "absolutely correct".


This is just for you this one. Let's look at the important bits:
I doubt fireproof cladding was a legal requirement.

It wasn't a legal requirement to have it installed, no. But to install that particular type of cladding, I can almost guarantee you (and of course I can't be 100% sure, just for the nitpickers), will be otherwise in accordance with Approved Doc B for high rises.

The only real differences are that it's only a 2 story building.

Ok where to start. Since we've mentioned windows lets go with those. Nope, they're not fireproof, but they're not a major contributing factor to fire load and development hazard. Cladding, composite panels and the like with either XPS, EPS, PUR etc filling is. It's been campaigned about since the late 80's by the FPA because they recognised it as pretty much awful even in commercial buildings where there wasn't considered a particular threat to life. Fire brigades started a practice of not entering buildings constructed of such materials due to risk of collapsing panel liners, melting droplets of insulation material, inhalation risks and lots of other nasties. It's well established that composite panelling is extremely quick to ignite compared to other more traditional building materials and, once it does, you've got a real fight on your hands to save the building.

The design of the cladding will almost certainly be called into question too, since it is likely it created a flue effect spreading the fire much more effectively once established. Most domestic houses don't have this feature, and indeed when insulation material is fitted to external walls of houses it tends to be flush mounted to the brick and then capped / collared at all junctures and service breaks.

In short - and back to my original point:
1) I will be amazed if the building met Approved Doc B regulations.
2) Approved Doc B in itself is an abomination of building design standards which was campaigned heavily against, and with good reason, by the FPA and I'm sure other organisations more interested in property protection.
3) 1 and 2 above are probably why that side is being washed out by luvvie stuff.

mpd's house isn't a lot like Grenfell and UPVC windows aren't a lot like composites.


Would you have preferred Grenfell to have had fireproof cladding then? Why not spend the money on something more important? Confused
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arry
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PostPosted: 22:51 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Would you have preferred Grenfell to have had fireproof cladding then? Why not spend the money on something more important? Confused


It's not a choice I had to make; it's not my budget to spend.

I'll go back a stage just to make absolutely clear of my intention; I'm making the point that, ultimately, the complete failure of Approved Doc B, the council planners, the building control surveyors and the sellers / installers of cheap polyurethane cladding are going to be the kickers for the inquiry. It's unlikely that any of that part of the chain has been influenced by migrant workers, asylum seekers, doleys, layabouts, dossers, muslims or any other breed of gimmedats in the eyes of the BCF's very own right-wing extremist.

That was all.
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GSTEEL32
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Would you have preferred Grenfell to have had fireproof cladding then? Why not spend the money on something more important? Confused


It's not a choice I had to make; it's not my budget to spend.

I'll go back a stage just to make absolutely clear of my intention; I'm making the point that, ultimately, the complete failure of Approved Doc B, the council planners, the building control surveyors and the sellers / installers of cheap polyurethane cladding are going to be the kickers for the inquiry. It's unlikely that any of that part of the chain has been influenced by migrant workers, asylum seekers, doleys, layabouts, dossers, muslims or any other breed of gimmedats in the eyes of the BCF's very own right-wing extremist.

That was all.


I suspect they'll find so many people to blame, that ultimately, they'll not end up blaming anyone at all.....

Expect over-the-top labour MP's to have a good old rant about it in the Guardian afterwards .....
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Would you have preferred Grenfell to have had fireproof cladding then? Why not spend the money on something more important? Confused


It's not a choice I had to make; it's not my budget to spend.

I'll go back a stage just to make absolutely clear of my intention; I'm making the point that, ultimately, the complete failure of Approved Doc B, the council planners, the building control surveyors and the sellers / installers of cheap polyurethane cladding are going to be the kickers for the inquiry. It's unlikely that any of that part of the chain has been influenced by migrant workers, asylum seekers, doleys, layabouts, dossers, muslims or any other breed of gimmedats in the eyes of the BCF's very own right-wing extremist.

That was all.


Apart from the brown envelope brigade. Shhh!
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Would you have preferred Grenfell to have had fireproof cladding then? Why not spend the money on something more important? Confused


It's not a choice I had to make; it's not my budget to spend.

I'll go back a stage just to make absolutely clear of my intention; I'm making the point that, ultimately, the complete failure of Approved Doc B, the council planners, the building control surveyors and the sellers / installers of cheap polyurethane cladding are going to be the kickers for the inquiry. It's unlikely that any of that part of the chain has been influenced by migrant workers, asylum seekers, doleys, layabouts, dossers, muslims or any other breed of gimmedats in the eyes of the BCF's very own right-wing extremist.

That was all.


The document I read said that the heating system had been changed and individual flats now controlled and paid for their own heating.
It said the residents wanted the cladding which had the highest thermal properties.

If you filter Google for 2012 to 2016 and search for Grenfell residents association cladding” you’ll probably find the same PDF.

It will all be whitey’s fault though. Much millions will have to be spent on addressing the “survivors” luxury needs.
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Last edited by mpd72 CPT on 11:16 - 19 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:31 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: H Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
[Argle bargle nargle]

Gonnae no dae that.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In consultation with the Design Team, the TMO and through several
open workshops with residents we arrived at the following objectives
for over-cladding:

A dramatic improvement in heat loss with new insulation and air
sealing which will generate significant energy savings.
• Windows which can be opened sufficiently to naturally vent the
building throughout the year, without contributing to a risk of
falling.
• Windows that can be safely cleaned from the inside.
• Windows that maintain the existing good levels of natural daylight
internally.
Improved acoustic performance which will bring the noise levels
inside the flats to within Planning policy targets.

• To re-compose the tower with the reconfigured spaces at the
lower floors into a coherent single entity and improve the overall
appearance of the tower which is such a dominant presence in
the public realm that will be upgraded as part of the KALC project.


The residents wanted the cladding with the best heat and sound insulation properties. Anyone want to bet that the "fireproof" stuff doesn't exceed these properties compared to the stuff used?

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Other-960664.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=960664&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:20 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Err... 70s tower blocks are notoriously bad when it comes to heat loss, any insulation would be an improvement. I'm missing the bit where they picked out the most flammable one.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Err... 70s tower blocks are notoriously bad when it comes to heat loss, any insulation would be an improvement. I'm missing the bit where they picked out the most flammable one.


It wasn’t even a consideration by the look of it, thermal and acoustic insulation levels seemed to be the only concerns.

It would be interesting to see the minutes of these workshops with the residents association.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
It would be interesting to see the minutes of these workshops with the residents association.

I'm assuming they don't go:
"We can give you cladding but it'll be the highly flammable kind."

"No worries we'll take it".
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PostPosted: 09:28 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

It wasn’t even a consideration by the look of it, thermal and acoustic insulation levels seemed to be the only concerns.

It would be interesting to see the minutes of these workshops with the residents association.


True, but in fairness, they'd have assumed that the stuff not being dangerously flammable was a given, surely. It's like when I pick a steak. I say I want the tastiest, juiciest steak cooked just so, but I don't specify a steak that isn't riddled with botulinum toxin, I just assume thats kind of self evident...
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
It would be interesting to see the minutes of these workshops with the residents association.

I'm assuming they don't go:
"We can give you cladding but it'll be the highly flammable kind."

"No worries we'll take it".


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but this cladding was also widely available and widely used.
At the time, if offered both shortly after becoming responsible for their won heating bills, do you think they would have gone for the one with less thermal and sound insulation properties, for the increased fire resistance?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
mpd72 wrote:

It wasn’t even a consideration by the look of it, thermal and acoustic insulation levels seemed to be the only concerns.

It would be interesting to see the minutes of these workshops with the residents association.


True, but in fairness, they'd have assumed that the stuff not being dangerously flammable was a given, surely. It's like when I pick a steak. I say I want the tastiest, juiciest steak cooked just so, but I don't specify a steak that isn't riddled with botulinum toxin, I just assume thats kind of self evident...


Pop up to your loft and try lighting your loft insulation. Tell me how you get on. The latest stuff is often made from recycled plastic bottles and quite flammable.

I doubt the cladding is advertised or designed to specially combust, it's designed to have the best thermal and acoustic insulation properties. They also make another which is less flammable, but also less good at it's main job of insulating. Your choice, but up until this building went up, I don;t remember it being a problem with the thousands of other buildings kitted out with it.

Mind you, they may not have had a Butane Hash Oil factory operating on one of the lower floors, (allegedly).
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buying Celotex/kingspan and similar insulation since Grenfell has been like trying to stock up on hen lips.
I have two 100mm sheets left over from the pole studio roof/soon to be flaming hellpit Laughing and my builder is tripping
over himself to buy them off of me for the same £64 a sheet I paid for them. The shortage is also in part due to
the chemical factory in Germany that burnt down (irony alert) which produces the specific chemical used to make
such insulations. My architect said that specifying different insulation which does the job just as well while the powers
that be argue about whether it can continue to be used is proving to be a pain.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
At the time, if offered both shortly after becoming responsible for their won heating bills, do you think they would have gone for the one with less thermal and sound insulation properties, for the increased fire resistance?

Do you think they had a choice? You know how these things go. Death cladding will cost x amount, non-death cladding will cost x amount plus a small percentage... better get the death cladding.

mpd72 wrote:
Your choice, but up until this building went up, I don;t remember it being a problem with the thousands of other buildings kitted out with it.

It was, see Lakanal House (only 6 proles died tho so no biggie) and all the other examples of cladded buildings going up in flames. It took (deaths on the scale of) Grenfell for anyone to give a shit.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
At the time, if offered both shortly after becoming responsible for their won heating bills, do you think they would have gone for the one with less thermal and sound insulation properties, for the increased fire resistance?

Do you think they had a choice? You know how these things go. Death cladding will cost x amount, non-death cladding will cost x amount plus a small percentage... better get the death cladding.

mpd72 wrote:
Your choice, but up until this building went up, I don;t remember it being a problem with the thousands of other buildings kitted out with it.

It was, see Lakanal House (only 6 proles died tho so no biggie) and all the other examples of cladded buildings going up in flames. It took (deaths on the scale of) Grenfell for anyone to give a shit.


And boy do they give a shit! Nearly £1.8M each flat for their free house upgrade. Maybe they could upgrade from Kensington to Chelsea or Mayfair?
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 20 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you should get a council flat then set the building on fire.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 21 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Maybe you should get a council flat then set the building on fire.


And hopefully he'll stay in to make sure everything is thoroughly Brown.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bumpety bump.

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2017-12-31/manchester-apartment-blaze-demands-for-safety-review/
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:

Probably white people no ones cares. </bnp72>
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:

Probably white people no ones cares. </bnp72>


Or maybe, Bitty Boy, it's because nobody was hurt? Wink
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 01 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/mfedq0q.png
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