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Why all the hate for Euro 4 ?

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decade
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PostPosted: 00:36 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Why all the hate for Euro 4 ? Reply with quote

I mean, almost everything in it is either:
- A good idea (Mandantory ABS, lower emissions)
- Only necessary because motherfunksters show complete contempt for the rules (Anti - Tamper)

They've got exemptions for recent models & exemptions for off-road bikes.

They're holding bikes to Euro 4 while cars are at Euro 6 - just basic recognition that requiring a form of transport with 1% market share to keep up in R&D with a form of transport with 99% market share you are just banning it, effectively.

We have pretty great levels of vehicle excise duty - so much so that we just need to STFU & hope no one notices.

Everything that sucks about our current system is nothing to do with Euro 4 or any of the previous ones:

- Repeatedly taking the very same tests on different categories of bikes at great expense on hire bikes - the system always allowed for progressive licensing, just the UK chose not to implement.

- Lack of interest in motorbikes at transport planning stage, no nationwide use of bus lanes etc

1 transport minister that had even the vaguest idea about would probably be enough to sort it.

If I could make 1 change to the current system, I would let A1 full license holders have a 250cc 25bhp bike- would encourage youths to get proper training & get a machine that is actually safe on dual carriageways.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 05:02 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sock -

Who says Mandatory ABS is a "Good Idea"? Fuck off. I personally detest ABS. I know what my front and back brakes can do before locking up, and do not see the need to introduce yet more complication and expense into a system. You want ABS? Fine, go buy a bike with it and enjoy, but there's no need to make it law for me to have it.

It's legislating purely for the sake of legislating, and can fuck right off and die in a fire. I will tamper with any bike I feel like, I paid for it, I'll fuck with it if I damn well feel like it. If it passes it's yearly safety check, it's fine.
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 05:36 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP should go and get laid or something, might make him less frightfully dull.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 07:58 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why buy anything that's anti tamper or good on emissions?

Ok if it's new and std a a daily bread earner only. I know alot of this forum are firstly commuters and secondly want fun bikes as to some the bike is the only vehicle they have.

I have old cars and bikes, none of them are or will be serious transport. Busses and trains and company vehicles fill that role for me.

But just picking on one of your points emissions:

If you could make an EU4 compliant 125 much faster than mine, and feel more exciting to ride then I'm all ears. Same if you could put a catalyst on my car that would give it more bhp, and faster throttle response with quicker turbo spool then show me how and I'll fit it.
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arry
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PostPosted: 07:59 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Re: Why all the hate for Euro 4 ? Reply with quote

decade wrote:
I mean, almost everything in it is either:
- A good idea (Mandantory ABS, lower emissions).


A good idea if someone else is paying for it all.

Those measures have added significant cost to manufacturers who in turn have either passed the cost onto consumer, ie bikes become more expensive, or in the case of 125's, made manufacturers think twice about producing for that market - it takes a special kind of person to lay out for a new mainstream manufactured 125 these days. So much so you have to question how long they'll continue producing them for.

Biking has now become more expensive for no real tangible net benefit.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 08:03 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Alex A etc will mention the inflation word here, but can we determine categorically here if a today's £15k Yamaha R1 is really worth the extra over a new £8.5-9k R1 from 98?

How much more bike does £6-7k more get you in the real world out on the road?
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kgm
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PostPosted: 08:49 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no problem with reduced emissions, that of course isn't a bad thing. I do have an issue with the increasingly complicated electronics that add cost, create additional failure points and make the bike harder for me to work on maintain properly at home. If I want a bike with all the electrical toys I'll buy one but I don't want to be forced to as I personally don't see the need (although I don't mind ABS, despite having only once locked up a wheel on a bike).

Also all that emissions kit often reduces performance and negatively effects fuel economy.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 08:54 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT200Fan79 wrote:
OP should go and get laid or something, might make him less frightfully dull.
Triggered!
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Monkeypony
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got nothing but love for Euro 4, it enabled me to save a couple of grand on a new, non Euro 4 compliant bike. Thumbs Up
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 09:27 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

kraggem wrote:
make the bike harder for me to work on maintain properly at home. .


And anywhere else, for that matter - whether that be at official dealerships or backstreet mechanics.

My concern is - partly at least - that more complicated machinery is more difficult to repair and thus more likely to be scrapped. Which in turn means more demand on manufacturing new vehicles to replace those scrapped prematurely, and thus also all the considerable pollution and extraction/refinement/machining of finite resources that would arguably otherwise remain unused. Wow that second sentence sucked. Let me try it another way. With all this eco stuff there's potentially an unplanned but no less inbuilt obsolescence (because of the extra complexity and resultant difficulty to repair) that could well create more emissions (from manufacturing industry etc.). Blah - and, moreover, meh.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Re: Why all the hate for Euro 4 ? Reply with quote

decade wrote:
I mean, almost everything in it is either:
- A good idea (Mandantory ABS, lower emissions)

Or combined braking on 125s and mopeds, which can be more harmful than helpful if its half arsed - enjoy those locked up rears.

(Most) bikes were already fuel efficient, low CO2 (dat global warming do), and produce negligible particulates, which are the big nasties from diesels.

NOx and that, but the actual number of bikes in service are minimal compared to cars and commercials.

decade wrote:
- Only necessary because motherfunksters show complete contempt for the rules (Anti - Tamper)

As they'll show complete contempt for any new anti-tamper fitted. Meanwhile, we all pay for it.

You're aware that the next tranche of dictats will be to fit Nanny Chips that actually put the bike into limp-home mode if it detects - or suspects - that you've tried to make it interesting?

More utterly pointless, utterly unnecessary stuff to go wrong.

decade wrote:
They've got exemptions for recent models & exemptions for off-road bikes.

Wut? The only exemptions I'm aware of are for:

Small volume manufacturers.
Grandfather rights for a limited number of new-old-stock.
Dual purpose bikes can have switchable ABS.

Enlighten me.


decade wrote:
We have pretty great levels of vehicle excise duty - so much so that we just need to STFU & hope no one notices.

High performance bikes did. Mine return between 65 and 85 mpg, so would very likely have 0 rated under the CO2 emissions system. OK, we're now getting it good again against the new flat £140 rate.

The cheapest Chinese Euro4 bikes are over £2K, and bike sales are sharply down this year. Even with the number of pre-reg bikes in December, it's looking like Euro4 has had an effect, particularly on povs.

It's a regressive system. Why do you hate poor people?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the ABS brake system on my Trophy and tell me what's good about that......

https://www.triumphestore.com/images/parts/triumph/fullsize/100061419-2-2.jpg
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grr666
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PostPosted: 10:03 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/grrthefearless/Brisky%20shots/euro4_zpsuy0iwrio.jpg
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The999Kid
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Look at the ABS brake system on my Trophy and tell me what's good about that......

https://www.triumphestore.com/images/parts/triumph/fullsize/100061419-2-2.jpg


https://mylaowai.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/130112-jackie-chan-is-fucked.jpg?w=454&h=270
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155mph
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Look at the ABS brake system on my Trophy and tell me what's good about that......

https://www.triumphestore.com/images/parts/triumph/fullsize/100061419-2-2.jpg

Good way to while away time and join the dots?
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeypony wrote:
I've got nothing but love for Euro 4, it enabled me to save a couple of grand on a new, non Euro 4 compliant bike. Thumbs Up


Aye. I'm finally coming to terms with fuel injection for an Enfield, but ABS? Headlamp always on? Plenty of preregistered 2016 models out at better prices.
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decade
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PostPosted: 12:40 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I actually didn't think the hate was this strong.
I'm not a 'sock', just new to the forum.
I think ABS is useful, I agree there can be bad implementations but far more often than not it's a decent feature. I agree, linked brakes are a pretty poor botch by all accounts - perhaps 125cc should be exempt ?
You can hardly lay all the rising costs of bikes at the door of Euro 4 regs - imports in general are getting more expensive due to currency value & bike prices have been increasing in steady chunks each year before euro 4 was introduced.
I just don't see what makes people so extrodinarily angry about this issue.
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decade
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Re: Why all the hate for Euro 4 ? Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

You're aware that the next tranche of dictats will be to fit Nanny Chips that actually put the bike into limp-home mode if it detects - or suspects - that you've tried to make it interesting?


Hmm, I wasn't aware it was quite that elaborate, to be fair that does sound expensive.

rogerborg wrote:
They've got exemptions for recent models & exemptions for off-road bikes.
Wut? The only exemptions I'm aware of are for:

Small volume manufacturers.
Grandfather rights for a limited number of new-old-stock.
Dual purpose bikes can have switchable ABS.

Enlighten me.


The small volume manufacturers should cover many of the off-road bikes. The actual quote I heard was from a KTM interview last year but I'm damned if I can find it again right now.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

decade wrote:
You can hardly lay all the rising costs of bikes at the door of Euro 4 regs

Is there some Eurodiktat preventing me?

I'm comparing Lexmoto's pre-bollocks and post-bollocks prices, because it's the affordable end of the market that's being hit hardest (as was prophesied when the Great Bollocking was announced).

Pre-bollocks, their bikes were in the £950 - £1500 range, OTR. Now their Eurobollocks model are £2000 - £2300 OTR. Same story with Sinnis. WK appear to have just given up, they don't even have any Eurobollocks bikes listed.

Sales of affordable commuter 125s appear to have flatlined based on MCIA new registration figures. There was a big bump of pre-bollocks 125 registrations in December 2016 then a huge drop in 125 registrations since then.


decade wrote:
I just don't see what makes people so extrodinarily angry about this issue.

I'm sorry you're unable to comprehend it. Sad
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

decade wrote:

I just don't see what makes people so extrodinarily angry about this issue.


I can't recall last time someone rammed a van into a bunch of MEP's so I don't suspect anyone is. That's another half of the problem; the lack of motivation / actual route to effective campaign against the most ridiculous, ill thought out laws which internet armchair pundits like Borg can pull apart in seconds.

The fact you're broadly in support of such idiocy says much more about you than it does us.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:49 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
armchair pundits like Borg

Swivel.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the point legislating for bike emissions when they produce such a miniscule proportion of global emissions.

Let the EU make rules about not buying stuff in Europe which is made in factories in say China (or elsewhere), which produce in one week the same level of pollution as all the motorcycles in Europe produce in one year...
But no, they'd rather add extra expense to the EU motorcyclist because we're easy targets, just like Cagers...

So bikes have to be under-fuelled to meet emission rules which effects their smoothness, which no one will be able to correct.

And assuming you're a sensible guy, you'll understand that loud pies are a benefit (how loud is the question), but EU prefers not to consider your safety...

Personally I'd like a bike with ABS and when I next buy one I'll consider it a plus when I decide which bike (although it won't be a 'must'), although it will be at least 10 years old by then...
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

decade wrote:
Hmm, I actually didn't think the hate was this strong.
I'm not a 'sock', just new to the forum.
I think ABS is useful, I agree there can be bad implementations but far more often than not it's a decent feature.

You're new here aren't you Razz I don't like or need ABS, it should be optional, I have more concerns over linked brakes which are dangerous IMO. With all these emission laws the fuelling on cars and bikes get shitter and shitter, at best it's costly to sort out, at worst it's dangerous. Overall it's more expense with no benefit to the end user, and probably not even baby polar bears.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:53 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
decade wrote:
Hmm, I actually didn't think the hate was this strong.
I'm not a 'sock', just new to the forum.
I think ABS is useful, I agree there can be bad implementations but far more often than not it's a decent feature.

You're new here aren't you Razz I don't like or need ABS, it should be optional, I have more concerns over linked brakes which are dangerous IMO. With all these emission laws the fuelling on cars and bikes get shitter and shitter, at best it's costly to sort out, at worst it's dangerous. Overall it's more expense with no benefit to the end user, and probably not even baby polar bears.


Linked brakes are shite. Linked brakes without ABS are bloody dangerous. Linked brakes that are front disc and back disk linked on a bike with only a single front disc are bordering on the suicidal and they want to put them on 125's? The class with the least experienced rider, madness Evil or Very Mad

My bike has 'smart' linked brakes, ABS and traction control which is why the plumbing looks like a pile of spaghetti. And it is so so unnecessary. just ABS Triumph, and forget about trying to out technical BMW please.

Even baby polar bears say

https://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f261/WhiteFurryBear/knut_berlin_polar_bear.jpg
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P.
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Euro 4 compliance can suck a tit.

OP why are you here?
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