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Why all the hate for Euro 4 ?

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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
OP why are you here?


Their bridge is undergoing renovations.
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techathy
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PostPosted: 17:39 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
just ABS Triumph, and forget about trying to out technical BMW please.

*looks at sig*Laughing

I own a BMW & I own a triumph.. I know which one can stop you faster under more control. It's the one without ABS, linked brakes & various other nanny aids... yes that's the Triumph!
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choogh
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PostPosted: 18:54 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own a BMW with ABS and a Yamaha without.
I know which will stop you quicker and with more control...
It's not the Yamaha.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:00 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

choogh wrote:
I know which will stop you quicker and with more control...
It's not the Yamaha.


A Virago? Hmmm. I find that inconclusive.
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arry
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

techathy wrote:

I own a BMW beached whale & I own a triumph featherweight. .. I know which one can stop you faster under more control. It's the one without ABS, linked brakes & various other nanny aids... yes that's the half the weight Triumph!


fixed for you innit.

Appreciate it's not entirely that but the two aren't similar bikes with and without abs, they're too different to use as a marker surely.
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decade
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
Euro 4 compliance can suck a tit.

OP why are you here?


I was under the impression this was an internet discussion board & in fact a couple of people did discuss.

But if there's no difference of opinion then it's more of an internet circle-jerk - I'll leave you to it.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 21:42 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

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P.
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PostPosted: 21:49 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

decade wrote:
Paddy. wrote:
Euro 4 compliance can suck a tit.

OP why are you here?


I was under the impression this was an internet discussion board & in fact a couple of people did discuss.

But if there's no difference of opinion then it's more of an internet circle-jerk - I'll leave you to it.


Gaaaaaay
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tax on my car (litre triple) has been lower than tax on my bike (litre triple) for the last 4 years....
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

choogh wrote:
I own a BMW with ABS and a Yamaha without.
I know which will stop you quicker and with more control...
It's not the Yamaha.


Is it the BMW that pulled out in front of you?
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 22:09 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Re: Why all the hate for Euro 4 ? Reply with quote

decade wrote:
A good idea


Would be you tie breeze blocks to each leg and go dive headfirst in a slurry pit.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:44 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Tax on my car (litre triple) has been lower than tax on my bike (litre triple) for the last 4 years....

Are they comparable machines Smile
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techathy
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
techathy wrote:

I own a BMW beached whale & I own a triumph featherweight. .. I know which one can stop you faster under more control. It's the one without ABS, linked brakes & various other nanny aids... yes that's the half the weight Triumph!


fixed for you innit.

Appreciate it's not entirely that but the two aren't similar bikes with and without abs, they're too different to use as a marker surely.

First off the Daytona is no where near half the BMW's weight more like 3/4 the weight. My Zero is almost half the weight of the BMW and thus should have the shortest stopping distance, however it is noticably longer than the other bikes.

The BMW feels like it has the edge when you first start getting into the brakes hard - better modulation, more feel & less rear wheel lift. Then the rear wheel starts to get a tiny bit of chatter, WHY?.. linked brakes that's why, and it all goes to pot. The first thing you notice is that all feel has just gone from the front brake, then due to the pulsing of the brake lever you realise that you've lost a lot of your modulation control. The bike eases off the braking a bit, you're left with two options -
1. keep in the brakes and let the bike sort it out
2. ease off the brakes, which will generally end up being more than you wanted to due to the lack of feel/modulation fidelity, increasing your stopping distances further

With the Triumph the brakes just aren't quite as nice, they're just a little down on feel and modulation fidelity. But when the front wheel starts to squirm a little or the rear loses contact with the ground there's nothing getting in the way of your control. You have the dexterity to ease off the leaver pressure a tiny bit to bring it back from just over the edge.
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Enduro Numpty
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PostPosted: 19:56 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, there are a lot of things that the eurocrats have dreamed up with the help of some big name multi nationals. Mention safety then in the next breadth say you have a remedy for the issue. Bosch seem to be doing particularly well with their ABS and TC systems in one form or another, in millions of bikes already.

In 40 years of riding I can't remember ever falling off (on the road) because ABS hadn't been invented. I've not long since got rid of a T120 Triumph fitted with ABS. The suspension was pathetic which meant hard braking on anything other than a perfectly smooth surface had the wheel skipping/locking and subsequent activation of ABS. The ABS did what it's supposed to do but the point is the suspension couldn't cope and the result being the tyre wasn't in contact with the road when it should have been and braking distance was, in my view excessive. I would much rather see whoever makes the "rules" focusing on enforcing basic functionality rather than have us all relying on supposed electronic fixes.

I read many road tests on the Triumph before I bought it and not once was this mentioned.
On balance I am for ABS but under no circumstances do I think it should be compulsory. I would question it's use in learner and small capacity bikes. Is it proven that it makes for safer riding?

Traction control is also becoming common on many bikes. Like ABS, in 40 years riding I can't think of an instance where I fell off because TC was yet to be invented. (I have done my fair share of falling off I might add)

The Bonneville had TC and it was about as relevant as the ABS. This isn't motogp technology, it's cheap shit being sold to us as something relevant when it clearly isn't. All it does is add value for the manufacturers, decrease reliability, and add costs for the end user.

The Bonneville (allegedly) had around 80BHP - fairly weedy by any standards these days. My old faithful FJR has nearly double that and in 6 years of ownership riding in all conditions was perfectly safe without TC. Prior to the Bonneville was a Fireblade - 175BHP and no TC. Still here to tell the tale!

As for the emissions thing - we've all got to live on planet earth and I'd like to leave something of it for our descendants. If our bikes can be made slightly more efficient and slightly less polluting then I don't have a problem with it.That said, for years diesels have been hailed as the saviours of the planet. How the fuck could this be? Anyone with eyes or lungs that goes anywhere near a road has always known they are manky, obnoxious, hideous creations. Yet 2 strokes have been the devils spawn for decades.

I have no answers, only incoherent ramblings Laughing Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enduro Numpty wrote:
Bosch seem to be doing particularly well with their ABS and TC systems in one form or another

This whole tranche of Eurobollocks was dreamt up by a single unelected, unaccountable 'rapporteur' who, you'll be amazed to hear, was associated with BMW and ended up recommending all the things that BMW were already fitting to their bikes.

Then MEP (and Ginger Witch) Kerstin Westphal went to the Bosch factory on a 'fact finding trip', during which she found out the fact that they were developing ABS systems for 125s and mopeds and it would be just awesome for profit safety if they were mandated instead of CBS.

Shortly afterwards, Westphal tried to pencil in mandatory ABS for 125s and mopeds as the rubber-stamp was falling on the diktat. Amazingly, this proved too much even for Brussels, and they knocked it back.

Nice try though. And that's how EU laws are written.
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Icon
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Sock -

Who says Mandatory ABS is a "Good Idea"? Fuck off. I personally detest ABS. I know what my front and back brakes can do before locking up, and do not see the need to introduce yet more complication and expense into a system. You want ABS? Fine, go buy a bike with it and enjoy, but there's no need to make it law for me to have it.


There's no human being on the planet that can outbrake a computer.

ABS is banned in racing for a reason. Many crashes would be prevented, taking away the skill element.

Modern ABS can modulates brakes over 15 times a second. Try doing that with your hand, physically impossible. Now try it again in a panic situation.

Any advantage that increases your chance returning home alive is worthwhile.
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:


Any advantage that increases your chance returning home alive is worthwhile.


Buy a car then. Statistically much better chance of returning home alive.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:
taking away the skill element


Happy to take the skill element away from road riders though? I learned to ride without it, I'm happy to be without it. If I fuck up, that's my problem. Just give me good brakes with good feel in the first place.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 21:59 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:
There's no human being on the planet that can outbrake a computer.


I'm well aware of how it works kiddo. I'm also well aware of the limits of my brakes. I have yet to come off because I locked up/washed out under braking.

It's distracting and I don't like it. If people want it, they can go and buy a bike with it, that's their choice. But forcing my choice in a very dubious "safety" move by making it a law? That's bullshit, and i'll ignore it/disable it if I damn well feel like it.

Now, you kids can get off my fucking grass.
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Icon
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Icon wrote:
There's no human being on the planet that can outbrake a computer.


I'm also well aware of the limits of my brakes. I have yet to come off because I locked up/washed out under braking.


Not as well as a computer's... your brain can't calculate faster than a computer.

That day you crash, you'll regret not having ABS. It only has to work once to be worth it. Take away the macho man attitude.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:
Take away the macho man attitude.


Yes mum, sorry mum.

And who the hell might you be? Ah, right, you are Mr. Nanny State, PC, health and safety, fun-killing, I-know-what's-good-for-you....

I have two words for you: Piss off.
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kgm
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:

There's no human being on the planet that can outbrake a computer.

ABS is banned in racing for a reason. Many crashes would be prevented, taking away the skill element.

Modern ABS can modulates brakes over 15 times a second. Try doing that with your hand, physically impossible. Now try it again in a panic situation.

Any advantage that increases your chance returning home alive is worthwhile.


ABS doesn't necessarily decrease braking distance. That isn't the point of it, and in many cases it might even increase the braking distance. What it does is allow you to retain some steering control by preventing the wheels from locking up.

I do however believe that ABS is a benefit on the road, provided it's a well executed system. Different story off road and I'm not hugely keen on linked brakes either.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:
Not as well as a computer's... your brain can't calculate faster than a computer.

That day you crash, you'll regret not having ABS. It only has to work once to be worth it. Take away the macho man attitude.

That's the problem, people have it kick in once and think OMG it saved me so glad I had it, when in truth it's just an overly sensitive system. I won't be buying a bike (in future) with ABS without knowing it can be easily disabled.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:
Not as well as a computer's... your brain can't calculate faster than a computer.

That day you crash, you'll regret not having ABS. It only has to work once to be worth it. Take away the macho man attitude.


When I crash, I'll probably regret riding like a cunt, but I'll not give a second thought about ABS.

I'm aware of my limitations, I'm aware of the bikes, I try to ride within them. It's not fucking rocket science.

As for changing my attitude? No, fuck off. You change your hand-wringing, safety first, cotton wool attitude.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 23:32 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icon wrote:
There's no human being on the planet that can outbrake a computer.

ABS is banned in racing for a reason. Many crashes would be prevented, taking away the skill element.


I haven't checked recently but I believe in many Bike and Car racing categories (top level inc MotoGP and F1 I believe) ABS isn't banned (or certainly wasn't).
It was an option but because the riders and drivers could brake quicker themselves in certain situations, it's and option that isn't taken up.
You can brake more efficiently by locking the brakes occasionally but only in certain circumstances.
Those circumstances are not something you'd want a computer making a judgement call over.

Equally if computer ABS is so marvellous then why is it specifically removed from off road bikes/cars (ignoring any competition involvement)?
Maybe because there are certain situations where there's more to braking than a set of computer algorithms.
A bit like certain rare occasions on the road and race track I guess..

As I've said earlier, I'd certainly see ABS as a positive in road riding for me, but it isn't the perfect cure...


Edit, I've just checked and it looks to me like ABS in MotoGP was banned in 2010, despite it being available for much longer, but not being used by any team.
It also looks like it's banned from F1 but I can't see when that happened...
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