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Carb suspicions on 250 twin

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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Carb suspicions on 250 twin Reply with quote

So I haven’t ever had a four stroke engine this small to work with and I have some suspicions about carb sizes. On a bike with a hundred horsepower 20% difference either way doesn’t make much difference but on an engine this small you really need to keep it spot on.

In standard trim with an airbox this kind of engine usually has a pair of 26mm CV carbs or sometimes a single round slide carb of near as dammit the same size. I’m going for single carb simplicity because I don’t really see the point of twin carbs on an engine this small that only sucks one piston at a time.

Having had the engine apart I’ve noticed that the inlet hole in the head is only 20mm and the inlet valve is about the same size and doesn’t open by much, so wouldn’t that mean that no matter what size carb you had it would only act like a 20mm one?

To my thinking there’s only so much fuel mixture you’re going to be able to pull through that small an opening, so any carb you use would be limited by the laws of physics so that yes you COULD run a carb the size of a bucket (if you could jet it right) but you’d only have a smidgeon of slide opening before you’d reached the limit to how much fuel and air could be sucked into the engine past the wee little inlet valve. Without fancy gasses or the mechanical trickery of double overhead underhangers, turboshitters and wangler thrusters there’s only so much inhale and engine can take.

Normally with a bog standard bike (not something I’m prone to being guilty of) there’s some kind of airbox abomination with an air filter to consider. I’ve always been suspicious that arrangement basically strangles the engine a little bit so to compensate they fit a slightly larger carb than is strictly necessary so enough air can be drawn, and the carb is jetted accordingly for the best mix, which explains why CV carbs go to hell when you take away the airbox.

But on my single carb setup there will be no such restriction as an airbox or filter, and I won’t be using a CV carb, so wouldn’t that mean I could use a slightly smaller than “normal” carb and get basically the same performance? The smallest KOSO I know of are 24mm but there’s some other 20-22 carb types to consider playing with. I figure it would run better and get better mileage too.

Or am I missing something?
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 23 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you not want to run a slightly bigger single carb on a twin though to make up for the more tortuous inlet tract routing? Also you have more area to fill in the space from the carb to the back of the inlet valves on a twin. They'd still be mixture flowing into the port with the closed valve to fill the space because of the suction from the cylinder on the induction stroke?

I'd get a nice flat slide 24/26mm or even a 28mm carb if it's something you come across cheap.

Bit confused by your thoughts on fuel efficiency too, as most of your posts on these engines have been about how to extract more power or capacity from them so far?
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: mystery Reply with quote

I know nothing about carbs really. Inlet tracts and things are rocket science to me. But I have made some curious carb discoveries in the past, mostly to do with two stroke weirdness which inevitably includes expansion chamber stuff and witchcraft. All I know is, there's only a 20mm hole per cylinder in the head of this engine for the fuel stuff to get in and that doesn't seem like much to work with. If I get it wrong on an engine this small it'll definitely show.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 01:23 - 24 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onthis egie, I suspect you are over thinking it, and givig it FAR too much credit to cofound!
The inlet manifold is mai restrction on sigle carb set-ups; doesn't seem to make much odds whether you drop a 24 or 26mm keihi on them.
Twins do liberate a tad more throttle response, but probably no more power.
Air-Boxes DO work, ad on the T-carb set-ups o the benly egine there is a long 'snorle' on the carb goig into the carb mouth to offer a good amount of air-correction ad smooth flow out before it gits the jets.. they DO make a difference, they DONT add restriction...
Open carbs and pod filters DO...
Lacking an flow smoothig before ar eters the carb, adnd pullng air i any direction aroud the corner of the carb mouth, that can actually offer a constrction to reduce flow, and turbulance over the jets that hasn't had a chance to settle ot before it passes over them, screweing some of the metering finesse.
Pod filters... offer no correctio; still drag air from all directions, and make it tur eve tighter into the carb-mouth, and often more so NLY lettig air enter fro the side, so have to make tight 90 degree turn to get into the carb, and in incredibly small volume and distance infront f the carb-mouth.... just about as 'bad' as you can make thigs really....
YET.. little benly engie is so low tued and so tolerant on the most part, even a pod filter doesn't seem to screw them up THAT bad!
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 25 Jun 2017    Post subject: crab Reply with quote

The situation I have here is very little room to fit a carb since I'm determined to shoehorn it onto my MZ frame. I am still running around with an MZ engine at the moment and won't really have time to offer things up to see how they fit until the actual day (or few) when I take off the MZ engine, sharpen my hammer, fit a new blade to my hacksaw and fire up the welder.

My TS250 MZ frame is the shortest one they made and I'm running 16" wheels and no shocks so it's really low to the ground. At the moment you can scrape the exhaust round a roundabout if you're not careful and stub your toe on the tarmac going round a corner if your foot is under the shift lever, but I've gotten used to it. Basically it's a rather dinky little bike that scuttles around at car door handle level and it's going to be a squeeze to fit the Benly clone engine onto it but I think it will be a lot of fun in the end. Like a slightly overgrown pitbike.

I've only roughly measured things for engine mounts and the quadbike exhaust I'm using. This has to be a VERY BUDGET engine swap done in as little time as possible. Naturally there are complications already like where to fit a starter button and general rewiring to do, and the rear wheel will have to be reversed so the rear brake has to be redesigned, and many other little niggles. I've cobbled together some modified MZ engine mounts for the back and I'm going to weld a Benly front engine mount to a bit of box section and bolt that to the MZ frame just behind the headstock for the front mounting point. I'll probably cobble up a head mount after everything else but that will be easy.

The biggest carb problem is that the MZ frame is a weird curvy pipe spine design that slopes down at the back and it looks like there won't be enough room to fit the Honda Rebel inlet I've got so I need to dodge the carb sideways using the quadbike inlets or something.

My nice budget idea at the moment is to hang the carb out at a 90 degree angle using some bits of plastic pipe for garden ponds. The picture below shows it all in bits but when it's all squoze together in place it actually fits together really well.

The main problem is the 28mm carb. I'm thinking it will be too much for that engine, so I was thinking of buying a smaller size that can fit into the rubber booty thing. There's a few to choose from in a sort of 22-24 range and they aren't very expensive.

Obviously massive performance isn't what my bike's made for but it does need to at least run OK. I don't think the sideways carb setup will greatly affect things. Seen similar done to four cylinder bikes and it seemed to work fine.




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AND if I had to I could use two more of those 90 degree elbows plumbed in off the manifold rubbers and drop the whole thing down by another two or three inches. It would mean the fuel mixture being drawn a long way, uphill and around the corner but I don't think that would make much difference really. It would actually lower the carb location down to about the same level as the current one on the MZ engine but I don't want to do that unless I have to. But if I need the room it's a possibility.

By the way, where do the footpegs on a Benly go? Do they bolt to those extra lugholes on the bottom of the engine, and are all the 125/185/200/250 ones basically the same? It would be great if I could fit Benly footrests and side stand.
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 25 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's a 180 degree four stroke twin (one piston up when the other piston is down) then the intake strokes of the cylinders are not evenly timed: one intake stroke starts 180 degrees after the other, then it's 540 degrees of crankshaft rotation before the first one is back on its intake stroke.

That makes it pretty tricky to get the mixture right on both cylinders, from one carburettor.

A lopsided inlet manifold, such as you illustrate, can introduce similar problems.
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 25 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckily this crank is both pistons going up and down together so in my theory that should mean the pistons intake alternately, which might be a good thing.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 25 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the pics of your engine and frame, would it not be worth investigating the possibility of fitting two small carbs, each one splayed out either side of the big frame backbone? Two small carbs would be fairly compact, and then youd probably get away with a 30 or 45degree bend in each manifold. Obviously before the day you'd have to make up a 2-1 throttle cable and get all the engine wiring ready for coils and to join up to your existing loom.

If there's the 4threaded bosses on the underside of the gearbox, then you should be able to fit a CG125 style footpeg assembly and suitable gear lever, leaving the rear brake pedal to sort once it's bolted in.

Is there anywhere you could bolt a cylinder head engine mount to, as that looks quite a good way of hanging it from your frame while you fab up the front and rear mounts?
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 26 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would have been a good idea except that I'm fitting high level quadbike exhaust which would probably get in the way of the carb stuff on that side, and I'd have to buy a pair of carbs. The standard manifolds are designed a bit stupidly for running splayed carbs. I'd have to adapt some angled bits to get the carbs to splay enough and it all starts to look like more work than just making a right angle manifold for a single carb.

I really think running one carb on this rather softly tuned engine will be fine even on an abomination of an inlet manifold. I do know from some experience that you can have the carb quite a long way from the piston and things will still basically work fine. The only thing is that the farther away you put the carb the slower the immediate throttle response feels, but you'd have to have the carb like three feet away from the head before it would make things terrible.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 23:23 - 26 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

That single 28mm power jet pwk style carb looks quite nice, and I think it's definitely worth trying. The issue with the right angle manifold you have shown, is that I'd be worried about both cylinders drawing in the same amount of mixture, seeing as you'd expect the right hand cylinder to get more than the left pot?

It'll probably work, but if each cylinder is getting a different mixture ratio in an ideal world they'd probably want different ignition timing to get good combustion.

If you could make the carb feed into the middle between the two cylinders with a few extra bends it would probably be better, but then I'm no Carburation expert.i reckon a suck it and see approach will be the way to go.
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 27 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, in my head all the alarm bells are saying the far pot might starve but then I've seen it done on bigger bikes with four pots and never heard of it being a particular problem.

In my teenage years messing with cars I remember some wild and wonderful manifolds where at least some of the pistons were MILES away from the carbs and it didn't seem to matter, so I'm not sure.

I would expect that from cold the bike engine would probably start on the nearest piston first but probably only take a second to get both going and then once it's going I bet it just works.

The time between the inlet valves opening is really short at any revs so I suspect that once the manifold is full of mixture fog it doesn't have time to get funny before the next valve opening and to my mind the suction between the pistons SHOULD remain the same regardless of tract length once the engine is going. I'd be willing to bet that the actual difference the manifold tract length makes between the near and the far piston is so small it won't make any noticeable difference. At least that's my theory.

Of course if there IS a difference then one could always rebore one cylinder for a 300 piston and leave the other one as a 250 (but which would have more suction on the intake stroke?). I almost want to do that just because everybody will tell me it will never work but I just love that sort of thing.

I doubt the vibrations would be all that bad with two different sized pistons. It reminds me of the amazing 7 cylinder Ford engine I once had. It started out as a 292 V8 but one of the rods began knocking so I just pulled that piston out and took out the push rods and left the hole empty. I drove that seven cylinder van around for another year with the spare piston on the dash as an ash try and that poor old van was still running when I sold it.

Ah, the nostalgic days of proper shade tree mechanics.
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 27 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was thinking (never a good thing). Not that I think it's going to be an issue, but if my right angle carb manifold DID make the far piston run lean then what would happen if I were to bore one of the barrels out bigger to compensate? This is never likely to happen but I was just wondering...

Would you bore out the nearest piston so the carb would be richer on the far piston, and then jet accordingly so they both burn well?

Or would you overbore the far piston thinking in would have more intake power due to the bigger piston size?

It's an interesting proposition.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 27 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who knows how it'll work until you try it. I suppose practical considerations have to come first before ideal carb and inlet tract positioning. If it's in the way of your leg or being starved of air, it's no good having the ideal inlet manifold.

I don't think different size pistons sounds a good idea or even worth thinking about. You might end up with an engine that shakes itself to bits 1/2way up the Rev range or snaps the crank etc?

On injection engines with different length runners from the throttle body, they tend to use a plenum chamber to damp out the airflow requirements. Sometimes the plenum is tapered towards the end cylinder especially on boosted motors, and this must be to try and provide equal cylinder filling.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 28 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh boy..... The big manufacturers spend fortunes on flow benches to optimise gas flow, you want to do it with some B+Q plumbers supplies? Yes! I like your dedication!
My 'dabbles' mainly on a 60's CB72 would suggest....
Anything that you want to rev above 7000rpm (and increase power, not just noise), requires the SHORTEST inlet tract you can fit. A longer tract, as you have designed, will give better low, medium rev range performance.
I can tell you that, on the CB72, the head was adapted from the C72, a single carb design. this meant that, as I recall, the LH cylinders inlet tract had an offset towards the middle of the block. Whatever, it meant that this was the cylinder that constantly nipped up when used in extremis. Sorted by up jetting that cylinder carb over the RH cyls carb.
You do not have that luxury on a single carb setup, but, then again, you have an asmatic wheezer at best. I don't think, TBH, you will notice any difference, its in such a low state of tune it would probably run off a Wal Phillips 'injector'.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 02:12 - 28 Jun 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the instalation tightness you have, I dont really thk that makig up a manifold to do little to help and use what little available space you have is necesserily the best way to go.

Think that comes to my mind, is your 1+1/4 SU.. in the petrol tank, V-Max styleee... manifolded down either side of the frame spine, for shortest inlet tract, and 'even' flow to either pot.. 1&1/4 SU is sized for what, a 30-40bhp mini engine? It's probably not far off for the 'demand' of a 20bhp twin. Mounted over the egne, in the tank-area, you could make t quite a tidy instalation, and use the tank, as a fairly decent sizd still-air box.. all good stuff, to my mind.

What did they use on 2CV's? A small Solex Down Draft with accelerator pump might do quite nicely.. actually, one of the twin-choke 'progressive' that has tiny primary barel, might be rather useful; small primary may be big enogh on it's own.. but second barrel could give some useful added oomph if motor sucks hard enough... I'd probably probe that notion a bit further.

Petrol is easy to find space for, it will flow into whatever shape you make a tank to fit anywhere on the bike, and you could, back to the SU carb, use Mini's SU electric lift pump to keep the float bowl topped up, if you cant get a gravity feed.

As to the rest of the installatin, the grosely lowerd stance of the MZ frame and almost diagonal path of the spine, I think is likely to make stuff 'tight'; Benly motor's ot that long but it s fairly tall, and inconveniently tall at the back, where the rear face is almost vertical, compared to the MZ's nice little radius.....

Getting the motor n the frame, nicely lined up and hanging something like, I think should be the top priority here. May mean some post fit faff, choppng the exhaust to fit to suit, and waving carb and bits of hose about to find best place for it; but, that muddle in the middle behind existing pegs? What is that, a cetre stand?

Likely that having got the motor something like located, earlier suggestion of using the Benly peg mounts or similar bolted under the engie, could add to the issue of ground clerance, and from what I see i pics, I am wondering whether some sort of general up and tidy up, extending the sold-struts maybe 1/2" to bring the swing-arm level, and gain a bit more under cariage clerance for taller motor, may be in ordr, and then, choppng CB125 rearsets, and or AJS Raptor forward controls, and going full chop high-way pegs, to get them infront of the motor and up out the way of the under-carriage, might not be the best way to tackle that issue...

But, tis your baby... that's 'just' the sort of ideas prompted by pics...

I'm sure you could get the B&Q leggo fit pipes to work... just don't thnk it's likely to be the overall easiest of most effective ways about, or best way to use the space you probably dont have to mess....

I was looking at CB125 inlet flanges and trying to work out f yu could make use of earlier T-Shock stubs that angle cabs out fro the ceter line, or fit mono-shock TD flanges that angle them 'in', upside down or crossed side to side, to angle them out, to make better use of space, with twin-carbs..but I couldn't find any handy! (and ISTR that they aren't quite symmetrical to allow such re-orientation') BUT, other notion to my engineering aesthetic is again to go 'up' rather than back or 'out', and crack out the lumi-weld to re-angle a Twin-Carb set up.. which again, if you went high-way pegs might make a bit more room for them without knocking knees guzi style!

Census here, though does seem to be that you are not chasig the fattest pig, messing wth the leggo pipe work from B&Q, and probably making more problems with it than you solve...
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lingeringstin...
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 28 Jun 2017    Post subject: piggy Reply with quote

I’ve measured things and the Benly clone engine is near as dammit only about as tall as the MZ one but the whole engine is shorter from front to back, which is nice. That gives me some wriggle room to shift the engine about a bit. If you look at the pics above you’ll see how close the MZ exhaust pipe is to the C90 mudguard but it works. The Benly clone with the high level quadbike exhaust would be more out of the way. I’ve already got the quadbike exhaust. It’s a two into one that will run round the righthand side and exit just under my top box by way of a VW tail pipe or two. Easy and cheap and will work fine.

I would love to use the 1 1/4“ SU if I could because I’ve had a lot of success messing about with them. I am a huge fan of the no jets design and the easy access fuel bowl. I used the bigger inch and a half carb for years before going to the smaller one about a year ago.

Unfortunately they just don’t like to work very well on my modified piston ported two stroke where there was a bit of a blowback in the inlet before the piston fully closes off the port so the SU piston bounces up and down alarmingly when you’re not just fully blatting it down the road. Consequently if you were stuck at low speed anywhere the carb would quickly begin flooding the engine as the carb’s piston bounced up and down like mad. No form of damper oil or not or spring could stop it fluttering badly. It’s just an inherent issue with my bastardized MZ engine. Wouldn ‘t be a problem with a four stroke.

But on the MZ engineI could never quite get it to work right so I converted the SU to cable pull by drilling a tiny hole in the tube bit where the needle inserts so I could run a cable up the tube and out the top, but on the smaller one I connected the cable to the skirt of the slide as you can see in the pictures. I had to drill some air holes in the top of the damper pot to let the air out when you pull the slide up and had to take out the butterfly at the front of the carb and stop up the spindle holes with bolts.

After all that it just worked like a big Amal only better. With 300 different needles to choose from and an adjustable jet tube it could be tweaked very well and I was getting some amazing performance and mileage out of that design. The problem with SU now is that they’re expensively “vintage” and rather big. I would love to use a non-adulterated SU but I’ll have to do that later. It will take some crafty inlet manifold design. But yes I do hope to use it at some point. For now though I’m going to bodge on the 28mm KOSO and hope for the best. I think it’ll work for now, at least enough to get me going.

I got the footpeg gubbins for a 185 Benly which appear to perfectly bolt to the bottom of the 250 engine I’ve got. The problem is that the footpegs come out at pretty much the same point as my MZ ones and I find that location a bit uncomfortable so I’m designing some footpegs to mount right on the end of the swingarm bolt. I’ll still keep the Benly thing bolted to the bottom of the engine for the side stand arrangement but I’ll cut off the footpeg bits. I’ve never liked that idiotic MZ side stand on the rear axle. The Benly stand will be much better.

I never liked the MZ footpeg placement and years ago when the nbike was more normal and I was a courier I would use the rear footpegs to rest my feet on for motorways. That was OK but I did used to wish there was some manner of halfway point footpeg placement, which is exactly where the swingarm bolt is. I just never got round to doing anything about it until now since there’s going to be major surgery to fit the new engine.

I’m having bolt holes tapped into the ends of a spare swingarm bolt and will use that for footpeg attachment with some clever use of welder, old gudgeon pins and Yamaha rear monoshock parts. I’ll be using a YBR125 brake pedal when I switch the wheel around for the engine swap. I already have one and it fits beautifully in the mockup I did with a bunch of disk magnets. I’m getting something like a CB125 gear lever and linkage for the other side. Should work fine. All that crap where the MZ pegs mount in front of the center stand can just get hacksawed off.


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In the above photo you can also see the current brake rod shite and the center stand held up with a spring going to the old rear footpeg mount. All that shit could go if necessary.

I’ll be making some new struts about an inch or two longer for the rear at some point after the engine swap is done. The GS750 forks I’m using stick up a good couple of inches out of the top yoke so there’s room to raise the bike for a bit more ground clearance.
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