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Jayy
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PostPosted: 03:54 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: 4K Gaming / 4K Projection Reply with quote

My PC is approaching 5 years old now, the only thing I have really upgraded is my GPU in that time (twice). I simply don't game as much as I once did but I do a fair bit of VR stuff these days, so I still need a good rig.

My projector is a similar age as well now and although it can do 1080p in 3D, the Vive pisses on anything for 3D by a country mile.

i7 3770k / 16gb Ram and current GPU is a 980ti and I've already decided upgrading the mobo + cpu + ram is pointless but as I want to get a 4K projector, I'm thinking about what's going to power the gaming side of it...

Option 1: 1080ti

These are nearly £700 cards at the mo and would directly replace the 980ti

Option 2: Xbox One X

This is the first time in 10+ years that I have considered a console to replace my gaming needs. The specs of this thing are fucking crazy for the price point.

Xbox One X
12gb GDDR5 on the GPU @ 326 gb/s + 1172MHz clock
4K @ 60fps resolution with HDR10 support

Compare that to a:-

1080ti which has 11gb GDDR5X @ 484 gb/s + 1582MHz clock

The rumored price point is going to be sub £500 as well for the Xbox, which as a whole unit Vs. just a £700 GPU, that's really fucking appealing.

Would be nice if there was a way to hook the Vive up to it as well, as it's more than capable but m$ completely snubbed any mention of VR at all when talking about the 1X.

The other thing is too, how many Xbox titles coming out will utilize the 4K @ 60fps?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 07:47 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Xbox One X is a interesting piece of hardware, but that's about it for me. A gaming console is as good as the games that are released for it. I think Microsoft is lacking in this department + the big games such as Forza are being released on w10, where the game look and playe better on ''cheaper'' PC hardware.

Option 3: Playstation 4 Pro
1800p + upscale to 4K (won't notice) + HDR + VR (that's what you like) + the games (Although Microsoft promised more games to be released for the Xbox)

On a different note, I was considering the Xbox One X as well. Then, I do not own a 4K display and the games I would play on it, can be played on a mid-range PC, including the until recently exclusive Forza.
Also, I know the 4K is the new ''must have'' feature, but 4K gaming on a console is not the same as on the PC, just like the FullHD never was. The resolution of the picture is one thing, but there's also the frame rate + gfx effects and quality + post-processing + even the loading times and so on is, what matters.

TL; DR: HW specs of a gaming console may be deceiving.
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P.
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PostPosted: 08:12 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Option 3: Playstation 4 Pro


A Playstation 4 Pro is in no way any competition to the Xbox One X... no where close.

Its due to the shitty ps4 that Destiny 2 has been locked down on consoles at 30fps. It can go fuck a goblin.

Jayy, I partly agree with the console is only as good as the games made for it. I'd keep the PC updated if you want to do proper beastly stuff.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
The Xbox One X is a interesting piece of hardware, but that's about it for me. A gaming console is as good as the games that are released for it. I think Microsoft is lacking in this department + the big games such as Forza are being released on w10, where the game look and playe better on ''cheaper'' PC hardware.

I dunno Forza Apex and Horizon 3 were very demanding on PC, yet it's about the only (racing) game that runs properly on the Xbox Rolling Eyes Xbox has more interesting games for me personally but I appreciate if you already have an uber PC, a lot are coming out for Win 10.

Dunno about the Xbox One X, I'm still a little butthurt my Xbox doesn't like my 50hz TV (so would probably have to upgrade that as well), and that the console runs games so poorly.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 10:14 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Option 3: Playstation 4 Pro


A Playstation 4 Pro is in no way any competition to the Xbox One X... no where close.

Its due to the shitty ps4 that Destiny 2 has been locked down on consoles at 30fps. It can go fuck a goblin.

Jayy, I partly agree with the console is only as good as the games made for it. I'd keep the PC updated if you want to do proper beastly stuff.


You only prove my point. Thumbs Up

The new Xbox won't run any more games in 60fps than the PS4 does today. It's a simple matter of compute power. Both consoles, One X and PS4 Pro, have a 8 core CPU. Xbox clocked at 2.3GHz, PS4 Pro at 2.1GHz. GPU wise it's 6 teraflops vs 4.2 teraflops. RAM not being important for the frame rate.

What I'm trying to say, if for example the Destiny 2 runs at 30fps today, it won't run double the frame rate tomorrow. There is a chance though, they reduce the image quality, lock the game at 1080p only (or even lower) and will give you 60fps on the new Xbox console, but then people will come and complain about the reduced image quality and 1080p output only. Thinking
*Speaking of the same game/port for multiple platforms.

That being said, it's the games why people should buy their consoles, not the raw computing power. We had very powerful consoles in the past, they all failed due to lack of quality games being released for them.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
We had very powerful consoles in the past, they all failed due to lack of quality games being released for them.

Such as? The original Xbox wasn't exactly a failure, but as it was late to the (console) party they didn't get the games straight away, GTA 3 for example was meant to be a launch title but came out a fair bit later (2004 iirc). Still titles like Halo and Forza were a success.

PS3 was the king of the last gen'. It's strange how MS has twice now come out earlier with the less powerful console (360/Xbox One), although the Xbox One was hampered with all the Kinect/DRM nonsense.

I like consoles because they just work, you don't have the piss about with settings, and you know games during the life of the console will work (when a PC 5 years on is a dinosaur). However this is the first gen' I've noticed major performance issues across multiple titles (there's always been the odd poorly coded game), which's obviously more noticeable on the less powerful Xbox.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 13:54 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got the PS PRO and it looks amazing with the AAA titles. The only ones I've played that really take advantage are Uncharted 4, HZD and FFXV. Both looked Brilliant in 4k HDR.

HDR has a huge impact on how the details of the games look.

The screenshots do not do the difference just at all. You see so much more detail in the dark corners than without. All of these games look better than anything I have played on the PC. I run 780GTX in SLI. to Upgrade those cards by a meaningful amount would likely set me back 1.5 PS Pros!
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 14:15 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
I've got the PS PRO and it looks amazing with the AAA titles. The only ones I've played that really take advantage are Uncharted 4, HZD and FFXV. Both looked Brilliant in 4k HDR.

HDR has a huge impact on how the details of the games look.

The screenshots do not do the difference just at all. You see so much more detail in the dark corners than without. All of these games look better than anything I have played on the PC. I run 780GTX in SLI. to Upgrade those cards by a meaningful amount would likely set me back 1.5 PS Pros!


This is my point of view entirely... I know a PC can hands down squeeze every last bit of performance out of a game and deliver those overclocked, super high numbers but honestly, the graphics on a PS4 Pro or the upcoming One X are so good now, it doesn't really fucking matter about an extra couple of frames or turning AA up to 16x instead of 8x.

I think they're so close to mid range gaming PC's now (because they basically are PC's) that the gap has closed for me. Playing Battlefield 3 on PC and then checking it on console to see it looking like low settings on a PC was a huge difference.

I've been holding off for a 4K projector for a couple years now and they're finally coming down to an acceptable price point that I want one.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayy wrote:
chris-red wrote:
I've got the PS PRO and it looks amazing with the AAA titles. The only ones I've played that really take advantage are Uncharted 4, HZD and FFXV. Both looked Brilliant in 4k HDR.

HDR has a huge impact on how the details of the games look.

The screenshots do not do the difference just at all. You see so much more detail in the dark corners than without. All of these games look better than anything I have played on the PC. I run 780GTX in SLI. to Upgrade those cards by a meaningful amount would likely set me back 1.5 PS Pros!


This is my point of view entirely... I know a PC can hands down squeeze every last bit of performance out of a game and deliver those overclocked, super high numbers but honestly, the graphics on a PS4 Pro or the upcoming One X are so good now, it doesn't really fucking matter about an extra couple of frames or turning AA up to 16x instead of 8x.

I think they're so close to mid range gaming PC's now (because they basically are PC's) that the gap has closed for me. Playing Battlefield 3 on PC and then checking it on console to see it looking like low settings on a PC was a huge difference.

I've been holding off for a 4K projector for a couple years now and they're finally coming down to an acceptable price point that I want one.


Projectors are shit at Blacks though right? One of the Main benefits of HDR is how black blacks look. My TV looks like it is turned off in the black areas of the screen.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the projector I'm on about :

https://www.optoma.co.uk/projectorproduct/uhd60

Going to be priced @ £2,500 which is massively acceptable considering before these are released, you were looking at £6,000 for a true 4K projector.

They haven't released it yet, it's due any day and the final specs are not 100% nailed down either until they announce it.

As for projectors and blacks / whites, never really bothered me. Mine is pretty good for that but the sheer size just amazes you and I think having a good screen is paramount as well.

Honestly, moving from 1080p to 4K will be mind blowing, especially @ 150 ish inch. It's never going to be as good as a high end 4K tv because of the panels, etc but even my projector still blows me away when you sit there watching a film and think, fuck, look how good that looks.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
We had very powerful consoles in the past, they all failed due to lack of quality games being released for them.

Such as?


3DO (A gaming beast, that could run games such as Need for Speed 1 in the same quality, that you could see on your high end PC with full motion video)
Saturn (very invoative dual CPU console)
Jaguar (the first 64 bit gaming console)
LaserActive (less known)
Dreamcast (although met a decent success)
Gamecube* (although met a decent success)
...

*Gamecube was the very last console, where Nintendo took part in the console wars = keeping up with the technology development and pushing it further.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
3DO (A gaming beast, that could run games such as Need for Speed 1 in the same quality, that you could see on your high end PC with full motion video)
Saturn (very invoative dual CPU console)
Jaguar (the first 64 bit gaming console)
LaserActive (less known)
Dreamcast (although met a decent success)
Gamecube* (although met a decent success)
...

*Gamecube was the very last console, where Nintendo took part in the console wars = keeping up with the technology development and pushing it further.

I wouldn't really consider those last two powerful. The others maybe but then you have to throw in other factors, high cost etc. I get your point but I think it's a bit more complicated, particularly in that competitive early-mid 90s era when the old names were fading, and 2000s where even Sega and Nintendo became irrelevant and it was Sony vs. Microsoft.

To sort of bring this back to topic Razz I don't think there are that many exclusives anymore to keep you on a platform. If you had a top-end gaming PC and a PS4 pro that would cover everything, but if you can only have one I would buy the best console in terms of performance. Unless not having something like Gran Turismo's a deal breaker, you're going to be playing cross platform games mainly, and Just Cause 3 (for example) will have the odd bit of slowdown on a standard PS4 and be virtually unplayable at times on a standard XBox One.

Also worth pointing out these vastly upgraded mid-gen consoles are a bit of an experiment.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Also worth pointing out these vastly upgraded mid-gen consoles are a bit of an experiment.


The specs are undeniable though and comparable to the higher end of a mid range PC now.

12GB GDDR5 on a console? That's still impressing me. Not to mention all the other fancy things the 1X will do.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I just wonder how many developers (especially third-party) are going to bother, especially if it doesn't sell that well. Apparently 1 in 5 PS4 sales since November were the Pro model, and the console overall has comprehensively outsold the Xbox (60 million to 26 mil').
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it's gonna be just a mid-generation console, I still think the games will by primarely made for the original Xbox One and the One X will just have some cool extra options (we in the PC gaming world call these ''gfx settings''). Higher resolution of the picture, not necessarily the textures, being one of them and quite possibly the only selling point.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayy wrote:
even my projector still blows me away when you sit there watching a film and think, fuck, look how good that looks.

Mine also (still on 1080p). Even more, it highlights weak compression - Amazon Prime video in particular suffers, more than Netflix. Torrented video? Forget about being happy with the image quality.

And that's the rub: getting decent media.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 03:13 - 04 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a HD snob, I ONLY watch bluray for film otherwise it's not happening. It has to have Dolby 5.1 as well or I'm not watching it.

Have a fair few 4K UHDs too but watching them on my 32" monitor @ 4K is not the same as on the projector @ 1080p but 150 inch. It looks superb but the size is no comparison, I can't be doing with watching them on my monitor.

If anyone has Vive / Oculus, can you stomach a whole movie in a VR movie theater? Some people I know fucking love it and say it has replaced their monitors for sure... I just can't seem to relax in to a film with the headset on, it's like I'm always aware there's a headset strapped to my eyes (people say they forget after 10 mins).
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owl
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PostPosted: 07:37 - 04 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
As it's gonna be just a mid-generation console


Xbox Scorpio could eliminate console generations — and that's a good thing
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 06 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something worth seeing (Xbox One X performance and games 4K vs 1080p/900p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_7iD9wjdCE Thumbs Up
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 06:03 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBF who actually cares that much about the small differences in image quality while playing a game?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 08:47 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
TBF who actually cares that much about the small differences in image quality while playing a game?

I don't, but the tearing and slow down you get on 'next gen' games' quite appalling. I know it's always been an issue to a certain extent, MotoGP 06 ran poorly on the 360 (for example) and that was early on in the cycle, and for that platform only. But when you get tearing on the latest F1 game it's a bit shit really.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
TBF who actually cares that much about the small differences in image quality while playing a game?


To use a quote from a Motörhead song: ''It's all about the game and how you play it.''

If PS4 taught me something, then console players have very low standards at this department. I don't ming worse image quality and post processing, but I do mind inconsistent frame rate (+noise/heat, loading times). I also do not mind 30fps, I played Mass Effect Andromeda in 30fps on my cheap GTX1050 Ti (with no frame drops in Ultra quality and 1080p, which is something consoles couldn't do). But in the 30fps games, the frame rate drops a lot to low 20's and some games go even bellow that. The games are still playable, but it is quite disappointing. You start question who does the quality control at Sony or any other publisher.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's more of an issue with cross-format games and third party developers. Turn 10/Forza show it's possible to hit good frame rates with consistent performance if you do it properly. Assetto Corsa updates regularly fail the Microsoft inspection thingy but are released on PlayStation, I don't know if that's indicative of a more stringent QC process, you would have thought with the WUP it would be easier.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:20 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, M.C, this should not be a an issue today. Releasing games that run at 25 fps and lower should not be happening, regardless of the HW.

There are some very nice exclusive games for PS4, very pollished and running at locked 30fps with no frame drops regardles of what's going on on the screen. Then there are games such as Until Dawn, that run at 25fps and drop bellow 20fps. The very random jumps to over 40fps are not helping, as the inconsistensy of the frame rate make the game play terrible. In fact, I never really cared about frame rates, until I got a PS4.
You might say, buy a PS4 Pro then, well no. That thing runs some games even worse and isn't really a improvement, that would be worth the money. If you don't want/need 4K (even if it's 1800p) and you play ports anyway, then as many times mentioned GTX1050Ti with even a dual core Pentium G46XX and 8GB of ram on the cheapest H motherboard with an whatever HDD, in whatever case and PSU will give you not only compareable, but even better 1080p gaming performance.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:49 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
TBF who actually cares that much about the small differences in image quality while playing a game?

I don't, but the tearing and slow down you get on 'next gen' games' quite appalling. I know it's always been an issue to a certain extent, MotoGP 06 ran poorly on the 360 (for example) and that was early on in the cycle, and for that platform only. But when you get tearing on the latest F1 game it's a bit shit really.


RhynoCZ wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
TBF who actually cares that much about the small differences in image quality while playing a game?


To use a quote from a Motörhead song: ''It's all about the game and how you play it.''

If PS4 taught me something, then console players have very low standards at this department. I don't ming worse image quality and post processing, but I do mind inconsistent frame rate (+noise/heat, loading times). I also do not mind 30fps, I played Mass Effect Andromeda in 30fps on my cheap GTX1050 Ti (with no frame drops in Ultra quality and 1080p, which is something consoles couldn't do). But in the 30fps games, the frame rate drops a lot to low 20's and some games go even bellow that. The games are still playable, but it is quite disappointing. You start question who does the quality control at Sony or any other publisher.


Minimum FPS and the like actually impact on gaming performance, that is absolutely valid. People too often talk about max FPS, but it's the minimum FPS that you actually notice. But my point is really about image quality, like how detailed the flowers are in an FPS doesn't seem to make much sense to me as a "need". It's not as if these people ever actually look at the scenery, they just run around fragging stuff.
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