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DAS/Lessons: It's time to talk money...

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Are motorcycle lessons overpriced?
Yes
26%
 26%  [ 12 ]
No
69%
 69%  [ 32 ]
Unsure
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 46

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KTMScotland
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Joined: 03 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: DAS/Lessons: It's time to talk money... Reply with quote

Hello all,

My first post to this forum and hopefully not my last!

I have been riding now for 4 years on cbt and finally turned 24 this month. It's now time for me to sit my DAS and get the big boy bike. I have a bit of a problem though and hope it's not just myself that has noticed this. So here we go:

Car driving lesson inc. Hire - Fuel - insurance - instructor; £18-25/hr.

Motorcycle driving lesson inc. Hire - Fuel - insurance - instructor; £33/hr midweek and at £41/hr for evenings/weekends. (If booked in 3hr stints).

Please someone with insider/outsider knowledge help break that sum down into constituent parts allowing me to understand why it is that much more expensive to train on a motorcycle.

I hope I am making sense here but could be wildly wrong in my thinking, please help me out!
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Baffler186
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Car instructors only have to supervise and train 1 person at a time, whereas a DAS instructor usually has 2 people to keep an eye on, plus the increased risk of being on a bike instead of a car in the first place. This may be an argument for bike instructors charging less, but in fact they have double the amount of responsibility at any one time.

Then you have the over-heads of renting a practice paddock, which a car instructor does not need.

Then you have the maintenance and possible damage that occurs when bikes are dropped. Ok, learners can prang a car but I wouldn't think it's as common. When I was doing my Mod1 training, there were scrapes and gouges everywhere, where students had lost control and launched GSR600's into the walls.

Much shorter service intervals on bikes (if adhered to).
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KTMScotland
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Economy of scale Reply with quote

Thanks Baffler you make some really good points.

I would think that it would cost less to teach 2 people at the one time. For example 2 car pupils = 2 car instructors. Whilst 2 bike pupils only need one paid instructor.

I thought about bikes being dropped and tossed around but my experience is that the training bikes generally had protection bars around the parts that can break eg engine etc allowing for most drops/prangs to not cause much damage. Factoring this alongside the cost of fixing a motorcycle in comparison to fixing a car makes me think that learner car companies probably have around the same damage overheads as motorcycle trainers have.

K
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NJD
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's overthinking the entire thing? You are.

You've either got the money to do the training or you haven't. You either want a motorbike license or you don't.

You're probably missing the entire point of getting a full license being the training that you get with it. The training they give you on the CBT is so basic it's unreal (sure we've, including I, have all survived). Four years is a long time to be riding around with such a basic level of training under the belt, I'm not saying you've not advanced beyond the CBT level but be prepared for many "no, don't do it like that" so on and so forth.

So yes, training is invaluable.

Cough up or move on to cars if you think, for you, it's cheaper.
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KTMScotland
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: overthinking Reply with quote

I probably am overthinking everything here as you say.

I want a motorcycle licence like you wouldn't believe. I have a car licence as well, but choose to ride motorcycles exlusively.

I understand training is invaluable and of course needed but my point I am trying to get across is that we don't just need to "cough up" if we are not being charged fairly. I would happily spend the same amount on motorcycle lessons as I did with the car lessons for the same amount of time.

Having 4 years experience on the roads I believe would allow me to spend this time training concentrating on the important things, rather than basic control of the vehicle.

One important thing to remember is that if you don't question things
you can never be sure what your really getting, and if it is fair.
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Wheezybiker
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last August I had never ridden a bike I am 46
In just over 8 months I went from total novice to full bike licence
Total cost cbt 120 inc hire of bike
Cbt plus. Reduced rate of 30 as course subsidised by council
Theory test 35 I think
DAS 500 including bike hire (20%off promotion should have been600)
Mod 1 retest 50 inc bike hire and instructor to escort me to test centre
Extra cone training for mod 1 30 inc bike hire negotiated deal with training school
So total is 765 all in
I don't think that is bad at all
Both my sons spent over 1000 learning to drive a car

Maybe I was lucky I had good instructors and passed reasonably quickly
My eldest did the exactly the same except he took 4 attempts to pass mod 1 so add 360 to his total as it was 120 a retest including bike hire plus instructor and a hour warm up before the test
Still cheap in my opinion
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

One part is that with a car you're hiring 1 car.
With a bike you're hiring 2 bikes (one for you and one for your instructor).
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KTMScotland
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weezy, sounds like you got a good deal there including mod1 resit.

A good point there alpine but I cannot imagine it costs the bike training centre much for their instructor bikes/insurance. That's just speculation though. The places I've been to so far the instructors actually took their own personal bikes out on the road, but I am not sure this is common practice.

Anyway I do want to point out that I am not trying to be negative with my post, just curious more than anything.

Thanks!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, overheads are higher. Bikes wear out faster and you need to buy and run 50 - 100% more of them, you're more likely to drop them than to prang a car, and crash protection doesn't always work.

Having to run a site must cost mad dollah. Rates, rent, maintenance, facilities, admin harpy, it's all costs and costs and costs. You've also got the problem of not being able to earn money all year round, particularly in Scotchland, plus the costs and hassle of juggling mod 2 tests when learners fail mod 1. I queried the DVSA and the vast majority of no-show (i.e. wasted money) tests were booked via training schools.

In contrast, any idiot can buy a Micra, stick L plates on it and become a driving instructor, and many do. You just sit there in the warm and dry and say "No, no, you need more lessons," while racking up income. (Sometimes you get to hurl abuse at kids)

In the end it comes down to supply and demand. There's not a huge amount of competition in the supply of motorcycle instruction.

You do have choices though.

1) Shop around. Try different schools or find independent instructors who only do on-road training and don't have the overheads of a site.

2) Partially or fully DIY it.

You need bike theory anyway, so the cost of doing both riding modules on your own 125 to get an A1 license is only about £90.

Book the tests yourself, self-train (after 4 years you should be good enough), and go and pass. OK, you only get an A1 licence, but doing the module 1 off road in particular is a no-brainer: it's by far the cheapest way to practice it.

Then all you need to do is to do it again on a 595cc+ 40kW+ bike. Either negotiate with a training school for a discount quickie on the basis that you've already proven that you're capable, or fully DIY it.

You can buy your own big bike, practice on private land / "private land", find some way to get it to the test centre legally / "legally" and get insurance on it (Bikesure, perhaps others will cover you on your provisionaL entitlement).
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

To offer driving lessons for a car; the 'school' dont nee much more than a car, a telephone, and some-one over 21 who's held a driving licence a couple of years. There's no mandatory requirement that a car instrctor is DSA approved.

To offer bike lessons; the school has to be approved by the DSA, the instrutors have to all be DSA qualified, and the school needs not only a fleet of motorcycles for students to hire; but also covering the range of licence entitlements students may wish to test for; mopds, A1-125's, A2-45bhp or unrstricted 'A'. The school also needs to have an aproprate and DSA approved off-road training site, for CBT and Mod1 training; and they have to pay the DSA to maintain the schools approvals, and for CBT certs. Oh.. and motorbkes is a tad dangerous.... school has to maintain business liability insurance for the business, and the vehicles. Oh and to instruct DAS instructors have to pass a second, higher set of DSA tests, to gain thier approval for that bit on top.

Ie it isn't a cheap 'game' to get into, and where folk can make an almost professional wage out of offering car driving lessons; most motorcycle instructors are lucky to earn enough over a year, in what is a rather seasonal business, to pay themselves even a subsistance wage; most don't make a 'living' from the job, they do it for the love of it; often part time to a job that pays the bills, or to keep them from dying of terminal boredom in retirement.

You want to compare apples to ranges; look at how much you have to pay to insure a 1.4 Ford Focus as a new car driver, compared to a 600 Fazer as newly qualified bike rider.....

It's swings and round-abouts... some you win, some you don't; BUT no-one makes you ride a motorbike.. Makes your choice, and pays your money.. do you want a motorbike licence or a car licence?

It's a bit like complaining that a brand new TV only costs £150, but a washing machine costs £300.... Why cant I have a washing machine for the same price as the telly! Rather nonsensical. Things cost what they costs; you no want to pay what it costs; don't buy it!

Daft thing is it's 2017, you claim to have been riding four years; which takes us back ear as damnit to 2013, before which you could have passed tests on your 125 for a 33-restricted 'A' licence, and you had maybe three years fro when you were 17, in which you could have done that, and had the restriction lapse and have had a full ride what you like 'A' group licence in your pocket for little more that the price of test fees, which are likely LESS than you have pad to keep repeating CBT's to pretend being a learner and not have a big bike.....

If you could't be bothered, or couldn't be bothered to get clued up, despite that required 'refresher' lesson... sorry, but you don't get any sympathy from me! A fool and his money are soon parted, as they say.

You can always carry on 125'ing paying repeat CBT fees every couple of years, rather putting yourself in for A1 tests for likely less money... but meh... Top-Gun mentality letting the ego have the cheque book.... But your question has bee answered; Bike Schools have a LOT higher 'over-heads' than car driving instructors.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
If you could't be bothered, or couldn't be bothered to get clued up

What if he couldn't?

3DLD kicked in on January 19th 2013. Tests were booked out the wazoo up to then. Realistically, you've have need to get started well into 2012 in order to squeak a pass under the old system.

Do you feel that your rant about ancient history and hindsight was actually helpful to OP?
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 13:52 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTMScotland wrote:
A good point there alpine but I cannot imagine it costs the bike training centre much for their instructor bikes/insurance. That's just speculation though. The places I've been to so far the instructors actually took their own personal bikes out on the road, but I am not sure this is common practice.

It doesn't matter that it's their own bike.
You're still renting it on their behalf, unless you've found some way of learning without an instructor accompanying you.

As for insurance, I suspect it's pretty high both for you (as an inexperienced/untrained person on a bike which doesn't have dual control like a training car does) and for the instructor who spends a lot of time on the road.
Plus instructors spend a disproportionate amount of time concentrating on their pupils rather than their own safety (and therefore they're a higher risk).
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:
If you could't be bothered, or couldn't be bothered to get clued up

What if he couldn't?

Let the Moths out your sporran, their obviously irritating something.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 17:18 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

Let the Moths out your sporran, their obviously irritating something.


since when did you turn into a Moth.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Let the Moths out your sporran, their obviously irritating something.

Your defamations-racist-hate-trolling aside, what part of your irrelevant hectoring helped the OP?

I know that it wasn't your intention to help, I'm just inviting you to indulge in a rare moment of self awareness regarding your obsession with living your life in a but-what-if past.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sort of get OP's point. Bike training to full licence is expensive comparatively, but as said it's a different game to car training, and your plus point comes back after getting licenced up, as bike insurance is generally always cheaper in a like for like way.

Main thing though is as said, little competition for business and few training schools (fewer now than 10years ago) means supply and demand. 1% of UK traffic is not a market that new firms are desperate to tap into is it?

My question is this:

You arrive at a test centre on mod1/2 dates, to find your new fireblade has magically got itself there. Wink
But do you 100% have to prove to the DSA examiner that you have valid insurance on day of test, before you take to the road? I'm thinking that if this is not a 100% check pass/fail requirement, that 40minutes later with a test pass certificate in your hand, a couple of quick phone calls could have you 100% legal to ride home, and in the 40minutes prior to this if no kittens were killed, then it's happy days?

Not against getting provisional insurance on said blade, but as I understand there's very few underwriters that will provide such cover, and if you rang say Stevo's insurance services as a newbie with your CBR 1000RR and asked for provisional cover after riding a 10bhp 125 for a year and nothing else in between, I might be likely to say fuck off and stop dreaming sucker?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You tick a box and ride. I'm not aware of DVSA Derek having any interest in (or time to check) your validity beyond a quick look over the bike for obvious unroadworthiness or fault lights.

Bear in mind that you are liable to get pinged on ANPR or even tugged by the fuzz while on test. Small risk, large penalty.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our DAS price us £600 if you have a CBT, £700 if you need a CBT this includes mod 1 and 2 fee's.

According to the UK average for car driving, its 40 hours of lessons plus test fee, Even at £25 per hour that is £1000 before test.

I can have you test ready in 3 days training. Tests are set on additional days so our 3 day DAS course is full days training, many schools add each test into their daily training.

I have not read much of the comments but here is what you are paying for:

Site hire
Insurance
Instructor hire
Radio's
Wear and tear on 2 machines (remember my bike needs serviced too and thats all part of the business usage)
Helmet hire
Clothing hire
Petrol
Admin fee's for booking tests etc.

I guess it comes down to whether you want the expertise that I have spent years refining or not. You could always turn up on a big bike and wing it, some companies will insure you, it'll cost you probably more in the long run though.

Last week I took a guy to test, He passed with 0 rider faults, as he was returning from mod 2 some poor bastard had turned up for mod 1 with his own bike, a mate had ridden it in for him and he fucked it big style, Very lucky he never dropped his SV650.
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Snowdonia Rider
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any sort of motoring in this country is expensive. Two wheels or four.
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riejumike
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PostPosted: 20:21 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snowdonia Rider wrote:
Any sort of motoring in this country is expensive. Two wheels or four.


I totally agree, and for better or worse we have relatively safe roads with relatively competent drivers Smile

Quote:
having any interest in (or time to check) your validity beyond a quick look over the bike


Probably varies, but mine asked to see my insurance stuff in 2 tests I did on my own bike. Never with an instructor.
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GSTEEL32
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PostPosted: 20:23 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The average learner has an average of 67 hours behind the wheel; made up of 45 hours with an Approved Driving Instructor, and 22 hours of private lessons with a family member or good friend, according to The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA)."

At £25 a hour ( i think ), that's, 45 hours x £25 = £1125

I'm sure, CBT and DAS combined comes in at roughly that?

Maybe you feel it more because you tend to pay up-front for the lot on a bike?, rather than packages of 8 to 10 lessons in a car.

45(ish) hours training for CBT & DAS sounds about right too ( 4 days ).

It was a fair few years ago for me, but I went from a 125cc 2 stroke, to a big bike, in a matter of days, rather than weeks.... there was non of that fart-arsing about on 33bhp things for 2 years or whatever it is ...

I also found DAS significantly less daunting/boring/annoying as getting a car license.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

You need bike theory anyway, so the cost of doing both riding modules on your own 125 to get an A1 license is only about £90.


Did you know if you pass your A1 licence and kick around on it for a few years until you are 24 and go for DAS you have to do your theory again because it is not classed as progressive access.

So at 17 you can do A1, A full 2 years later A2 and 2 years after that A without the need for doing the theory more than once.

A1 onto A and you need to re do a theory test.

Even the examiners have no idea why.
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Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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arry
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:

Even the examiners have no idea why.


Cos Brussels Sprouted it.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
pinkyfloyd wrote:

Even the examiners have no idea why.


Cos Brussels Sprouted it.


Probably, Even our local examiner had to look it up as it had never came up before.
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Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:16 - 03 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a laugh, innit? We can't actually pin that bit of insanity on Brussels, we gilded that lily all by ourselves.

As I pointed out at the time when our 3DLD implementation was released, it means that there's an inevitable window where it's over 2 years since you passed your theory, but under 2 years since you obtained A1 (if going for A2) or A2 (if going for A"3") where you're not allowed to sit the next level of test.

Apparently you have to wait a bit longer so that you've thoroughly forgotten the theory before you're safe to proceed. Brick Wall
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