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Police Fed: no 999 speeding or going through red lights

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Police Fed: no 999 speeding or going through red lights Reply with quote

Huh, I missed this one, but rank and file Englandwalesshire coppers have been advised to not exceed speed limits, blow through reds or do anything that would be considered careless driving by a non police driver:

Ignore the source, read the content: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3914169/police-federation-letter-driving-emergency-report/

They make a very fair point. The police have a defence to specific offences, but not to all, and not to the general charge of careless driving. And that offence does make no distinction about the driver.

I doubt it'll result in much change in behaviour, but drive-to-rule would be an interesting development.
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arry
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOLZ.

It does raise a good point doesn't it. Careless Driving - not showing reasonable consideration for others. Problem is if you exempt them, you get a traffic copper who can do WTF he likes with no comeback. If you change the wording, it protects the average Joe from prosecution instead?

Reminds me - was watching an old episode of Traffic Cops or some such the other night. Couple of bacon in an unmarked Veccy park up in a layby off a pin straight dual carriageway and await a victim - duly clock an Audi TT doing 110+; fair dos.

What's not fair dos in my book, is after that, Bacon 1 gets back in the car and takes a while to do it, whilst Bacon 2 is busy getting his own voiceover about how he's MegaTron of the driving world and has earned the nickname Stig. Stiggy then sets off in hot pursuit down the dark country lanes that the guy has disappeared off down into. Some of the driving is pretty balls out, including quite a lot of off-siding.

They then apprehend the guy and state that they'd gone hell for leather for over 10 minutes trying to catch up with him.

So, 110+ on a pin straight dual carriageway warrants 10 minutes of high speed dark country lane-bashing to catch him, when they already had the registration number?
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Tracer1234
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PostPosted: 12:48 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly an interesting one, but I agree, we are not likely to see much change. However, I can see more and more people now videoing the police driving and reporting it, so will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
LOLZ.

It does raise a good point doesn't it. Careless Driving - not showing reasonable consideration for others. Problem is if you exempt them, you get a traffic copper who can do WTF he likes with no comeback. If you change the wording, it protects the average Joe from prosecution instead?

Reminds me - was watching an old episode of Traffic Cops or some such the other night. Couple of bacon in an unmarked Veccy park up in a layby off a pin straight dual carriageway and await a victim - duly clock an Audi TT doing 110+; fair dos.

What's not fair dos in my book, is after that, Bacon 1 gets back in the car and takes a while to do it, whilst Bacon 2 is busy getting his own voiceover about how he's MegaTron of the driving world and has earned the nickname Stig. Stiggy then sets off in hot pursuit down the dark country lanes that the guy has disappeared off down into. Some of the driving is pretty balls out, including quite a lot of off-siding.

They then apprehend the guy and state that they'd gone hell for leather for over 10 minutes trying to catch up with him.

So, 110+ on a pin straight dual carriageway warrants 10 minutes of high speed dark country lane-bashing to catch him, when they already had the registration number?

Think I've seen that one, they took a lot of risks catching him. You do see some unbelievable driving from coppers not in an emergency, I saw an unmarked car doing about 60 (in a 20 zone), down the wrong side of the road and through a crossing, to then pull up outside the station and drop off his mate. Also followed police riders speeding and overtaking without blues and twos, and often see coppers put on their lights to get through junctions (then turn them off again).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm, I'm in two minds about it.

The protections for coppers on a genuine shout are fuzzy, and they are being done for it. It's also reasonable to note that if it's not careful and considerate for Joe Public to do something, then it's not careful and considerate for a copper to do it. Just for example, ramming a pikey off a stolen bikey.

On the other hand of my mind, there are plenty of coppers who already set an awful example and take liberties that would give a #BahkLahfer pause.

Until they solve the latter, I'm not going to be too fussed about the former.
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
often see coppers put on their lights to get through junctions (then turn them off again).


That does make sense sometimes - the way some people react to flashing lights is surprisingly idiotic.
My favourite was the chap in front of me who smashed the brakes on and blocked the road when the emergency vehicle was still two hundred yards behind us and we're now sat on a blind corner on double white lines. Rolling Eyes
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

That article is a PR exercise designed to drum up support for a police-specific carveout on new driving legislation. It's a bit of a phoney war.

Police want exemption from careless driving, and are trying to do it with a work to rule protest. They're threatening politicians with the blame should consequential worse reaction times lead to a bad outcome in a future emergency incident.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jnw010 wrote:
M.C wrote:
often see coppers put on their lights to get through junctions (then turn them off again).


That does make sense sometimes - the way some people react to flashing lights is surprisingly idiotic.
My favourite was the chap in front of me who smashed the brakes on and blocked the road when the emergency vehicle was still two hundred yards behind us and we're now sat on a blind corner on double white lines. Rolling Eyes

Well I've nearly seen accidents caused by it, as the police unit driving normally suddenly wants to blast through a junction (then go back to driving normally).

In London it's the opposite problem, people tend to under react. You can't pull over too early otherwise everyone will pass you, so you have to keep going until they're right on you and maybe not in the best place to let them through. Then once it's through people often try to overtake each other rather than just carrying on normally. Mentally challenged the lot of them Rolling Eyes
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:37 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can speed but only on a 999 call and the risks have to be proportional to the emergency. The defence would really be a public interest defence. This applies to normal members of the public too. Also they have to treat red lights as give way signs. All the unions are at it now. I bet they want more money too.

M.C wrote:
often see coppers put on their lights to get through junctions (then turn them off again).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxsvmw248X0
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:51 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

tl;dw something about an American copper jumping lights to get to a fight Confused

It was strange when a police car nearly rear-ended me on the bike (and I fell over Embarassed), they felt ok telling me it was responding to a domestic violence call. I'd have thought an emergency call's an emergency call, you'd drive to the same standards Thinking
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
They can speed but only on a 999 call and the risks have to be proportional to the emergency. The defence would really be a public interest defence. This applies to normal members of the public too.

Is that a fact? Why's that, then?

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Also they have to treat red lights as give way signs.

Do they? You'll have no problem citing the statute or regulation then.
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TaffyTDM
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
They can speed but only on a 999 call and the risks have to be proportional to the emergency. The defence would really be a public interest defence. This applies to normal members of the public too. Also they have to treat red lights as give way signs. All the unions are at it now. I bet they want more money too.

M.C wrote:
often see coppers put on their lights to get through junctions (then turn them off again).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxsvmw248X0


Go back and read the road traffic act, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Tierbirdy
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PostPosted: 22:23 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

my 2p as a blue light trained paramedic who spends a lot of time whizzing about on blue lights:

People complain a lot about emergency vehicles using lights in what seems to them a strange manner, and looks like "omg they just used them to clear 100ft of traffic they didnt want to sit in or a red light they didnt want to wait at!"

- False.

99% of the time you see this happen its because they recieved a 999 call, activated for it, and then got cancelled for either a higher priority event/nearer unit becoming available. Normally when this happens to me I'll turn off down a side road then turn all the lights etc. off so people dont see it and get so upset about it. Also every single vehicle of ours, and I imagine the police to as we use a near identical system is entirely computerised and monitored by the control room. Control can see exactly when we have our blue lights on, and if we're using them how we shouldnt be (e.g. trying to get back at the end of our shift and go home on time) theyll be all over that and screaming at us over the radio.

We have to treat red lights as give way signs

- true. Im not quite sure why theres any dispute over this? ("s19 Road Safety Act 2006, emergency response vehicles exemptions & non exemptions" if youre particularly bored and want a legislation quote Razz )

Turning the lights on and off at random times

- yes we do do this, and its for a reason, normally because Joe Public panics and doesnt have a clue what to do, so they do stupid things like slam on the brakes or go rushing through a red light when they shouldnt. So often youll see an emergency vehicle hang back quite a distance and turn off the lights, so people infront dont feel pressured to do stupid things. For example coming up to a busy junction with a red light, and theres no room to make progress - hang back, kill the blues, wait for the lights to change or a gap to appear, then switch everything back on and go for it.

We have a long list of exemptions and non-exemptions from various road laws. Reading and re-reading this article Im thoroughly confused and dont understand the point of what theyre proposing.

What I was taught on my blue lights course was that the was the legislation reads regarding careless/dangerous driving is that "you must drive to a standard that is expected of a reasonable and competent driver", and because we are trained to a higher standard than most drivers, what is deemed reasonable/competent behavior by us is held to a much higher standard, so we can actually be penalised for "careless" driving whereas Joe Public who's deemed a lesser driver wouldn't be penalised for doing exactly the same thing because essentially they didn't know any better Neutral This was drilled into us time and time again as an example of why if we get caught speeding or doing something we shouldnt have when we're off duty, we're in mega-shit because we'll get the book thrown at us as we should have known better.

From reading this it seems like theyre saying the opposite, that even though police pursuit drivers are much higher standard of drivers than Joe Public, they now have to be held to the same standards as 17yr old Porscha whos just passed her driving test and out for a drive with "the girls". In which case they should be exempt from being treated like that.

To me it seems that what theyre wanting is an actual piece of legislation that says "these guys are better drivers than you and whilst it might appear careless to the layman its not" or something along those lines.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:28 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The police must get a lot of cancelled calls, in a very short period of time, all heading in the same direction then Smile
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Tierbirdy
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
The police must get a lot of cancelled calls, in a very short period of time, all heading in the same direction then Smile


youd be surprised, its not at all uncommon for a controller to be constantly changing the priority level of a 999 call. They dont wait for the call to be finished then dispatch units, they send the job to someone as soon as they have an address, then ask more questions as the units are running towards them. Its pretty common for a job to come down to us as a red 2 priority (8 minute immediate life threatening respsone), then as they get more details from the caller downgrade it to an amber (20 min response), then to be cancelled for a nearer unit, which then gets diverted to a different higher priority job, so it comes back to you, then it gets upgraded back to a red 2, then you're diverted to a nearer job, which gets downgraded so you get the further away higher priority job come back to you etc. etc. etc.

I think my record is 8 different job cancellations within a minute before they finally settled on a job to give us, thats a whole lot of dicking about with lights & directions and figuring out wtf youre doing.
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arry
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tierbirdy wrote:

To me it seems that what theyre wanting is an actual piece of legislation that says "these guys are better drivers than you and whilst it might appear careless to the layman its not" or something along those lines.


Interesting post. Cheers.


The bit quoted - that's what I take issue with when it comes to the police. It's either careless or reckless or it isn't. It doesn't matter the level of training the person has, and it perpetuates the myth that only supercop Traffic Trained Stiggies are capable of hustling with any degree of safety. That's just not true; training is available to Joe Public the same as it is to them. There are some people that are more gifted drivers than the police without the level of training the police receive.
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Tierbirdy
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:

The bit quoted - that's what I take issue with when it comes to the police. It's either careless or reckless or it isn't. It doesn't matter the level of training the person has.


Ah but is it?

"An allegation of careless driving, also known as inconsiderate driving or driving without due care and attention, can only succeed if the prosecution prove that:

Your driving fell below the standard expected of a competent driver; or
That you did not show reasonable consideration for other pedestrians and vehicles on the road."


(taken from https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/careless-driving-drive-without-due-care-and-attention-revised-2017/ )

Now adressing those two points:

We have an official qualification and important looking bit of paper (in my case an AERD Lvl3 AEU certificate, sounds fancy innit? Mr. Green ) that says we have a higher standard of competancy than Joe Public, so what is expected of us (and the Popo) as "competent drivers" is vastly different.

The second part all hinges on the word "reasonable" which as we all know is a very vague shades of grey term when it comes to legal minefields.

So what Joe Public does that might be deemed "careless" and what Stiggy McFuzz does are two very different things. And the Fed want a bit of legislation changed to quote something along those lines. Theres no conspiracy here to "let coppers off the hook for bad driving".

At least thats my understanding on the matter.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:07 - 07 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courts do tend to give credence to your Special Certificate, but a decent prosecutor (lol jk, CPS) will hammer that there is no basis for that in law. If that's what parliament meant, why didn't they, and so on.

Tierbirdy wrote:
We have to treat red lights as give way signs

I correct myself, this is now technically correct - since TSRGD 2016, the wording for a give way for proles, or a red light for an ambulance is identical.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 03:24 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
They can speed but only on a 999 call and the risks have to be proportional to the emergency. The defence would really be a public interest defence. This applies to normal members of the public too.

Is that a fact? Why's that, then?


Well the alternative to not bringing prosecutions in the public interest would be special legislation which might be abused. I also note that the speed limit is 70, but the real limit seems to be somewhere in the 85 to 90 region. And yes, it's a mess.

M.C wrote:
The police must get a lot of cancelled calls, in a very short period of time, all heading in the same direction then Smile


They probably do tbf. I see ambulances on blue light runs a lot, and only ever in one direction. I don't think I've ever seen one in the other direction. If one direction has a police station, and the other a crappy housing estate, loads of bars, or a big shopping area...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 07:52 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Well the alternative to not bringing prosecutions in the public interest

Is a consideration for the prosecution, not the defence. Duress is a (near) universal defence. "Public interest" is not, or else I could use it to exculpate myself from setting fire to estate agents.

Perhaps we're considering the case of a journalist desperately needing to get to the pub before last orders? Thinking
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M.C
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
M.C wrote:
The police must get a lot of cancelled calls, in a very short period of time, all heading in the same direction then Smile


They probably do tbf. I see ambulances on blue light runs a lot, and only ever in one direction. I don't think I've ever seen one in the other direction. If one direction has a police station, and the other a crappy housing estate, loads of bars, or a big shopping area...

Funny how I see them taking the exact route back to the police station. I'm doing exactly the same thing, running a bit late and itching to get back to the depot, but I don't have lights on my van* Mad

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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two circumstances when there was no emergency when I've seen the police both speeding to absolute excess and driving in a manner that would get me hauled up in court toot-de-sweet on a careless/dangerous driving charge.

1) "Training". I live in Cumbria. Durham constabulary regularly come over here in unmarked cars and horse about the place in big subraus and suchlike. They have no blue lights on, the only idication they are a police vehicle is a fluorescent sticker in the back window reading Durham constabulary training vehicle (also two adult males in it and two rearview mirrors).

I've followed after one on the bike before today for simple trolling. Every time he put his foot down, I followed. We landed up hammering down a B-road at gotojail mph. I eventually backed off because his cornering was getting extremely raggedy and he was going to crash if we kept it up.

2) VIP escort. 100mph on a motorcycle up the inside of traffic on a 2-lane road.
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Tierbirdy
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PostPosted: 11:20 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still refuse to believe the local fuzz are using blues to get back to station at the end of shift. That sort of thing wouldn't go unnoticed by higher ups, and at best you'd lose your driving rights, at worst they'd lose their job for gross misconduct. I'm inclined to believe that they wouldn't risk losing their job for the sake of getting back to station a few minutes earlier.
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Tierbirdy
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Two circumstances when there was no emergency when I've seen the police both speeding to absolute excess and driving in a manner that would get me hauled up in court toot-de-sweet on a careless/dangerous driving charge.

1) "Training". I live in Cumbria. Durham constabulary regularly come over here in unmarked cars and horse about the place in big subraus and suchlike. They have no blue lights on, the only idication they are a police vehicle is a fluorescent sticker in the back window reading Durham constabulary training vehicle (also two adult males in it and two rearview mirrors).

I've followed after one on the bike before today for simple trolling. Every time he put his foot down, I followed. We landed up hammering down a B-road at gotojail mph. I eventually backed off because his cornering was getting extremely raggedy and he was going to crash if we kept it up.


Now I can only assume that the basic police training follows a similar pattern to ours. My blue light course was 4 weeks long, 3 weeks of "normal" driving followed by blue lights on the final week. However through the 3 weeks of normal driving we were slowly granted more and more exemptions, because they wanted to see that we could handle vehicles at speed in a non-emergency situation first before adding the extra pressure of blue light driving. The first week was normal drive with no exemptions, the second we were allowed to exceed posted limits by 20mph, third week we were allowed to exceed by 30mph and on NSL roads we could treat them as unlimited roads. This did include some NSL B roads to practice high speed cornering, and the instructors would encourage us to basically go as fast as we could safely manage, so I can only assume this is what you are witnessing
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M.C
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 08 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tierbirdy wrote:
I still refuse to believe the local fuzz are using blues to get back to station at the end of shift. That sort of thing wouldn't go unnoticed by higher ups, and at best you'd lose your driving rights, at worst they'd lose their job for gross misconduct. I'm inclined to believe that they wouldn't risk losing their job for the sake of getting back to station a few minutes earlier.

Believe it son. I've never seen ambulances or fire engines doing it, kinda ties into my overall perception of the popo.
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