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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:10 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
workers rights

Are we all absolutely clear that every right you enjoy must ultimately be paid for by someone else?

The improvement of the commons comes from baking a bigger pie, not from individuals demanding larger slices for themselves.

Arbeit macht frei.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
workers rights

Are we all absolutely clear that every right you enjoy must ultimately be paid for by someone else?

The improvement of the commons comes from baking a bigger pie, not from individuals demanding larger slices for themselves.

Arbeit macht frei.


So lets stall wage rises at the upper end and increase wages at the lower end then the taxes people pay at the upper end can be spent on development and productivity csn go up and that pie can get bigger.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
workers rights

Are we all absolutely clear that every right you enjoy must ultimately be paid for by someone else?

The improvement of the commons comes from baking a bigger pie, not from individuals demanding larger slices for themselves.

Arbeit macht frei.


Pretty sure workers rights are primarily aimed at ensuring those with less punching power in 'the commons' are able to maintain their fair share of the pie they helped to make. Not arbitrarily demanding larger slices.
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arry
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PostPosted: 12:22 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lupo wrote:

Apologies, forgot this question. If a passenger gets ill on a train with just the driver, other commuters will activate a Passenger Alarm, depending on how old is the train, you get the alarm on the cab, you then talk to the controller and request staff assistance at next station, for more modern trains you have talk back and even CCTV, so you can talk with customers and find out what is going on and request medical/police assistance while on the move and make a Public Announcement asking for any medical staff present in the train to help.

For trains with guards or other staff, they will be the ones making their way to the carriage with the Passenger Alarm and dealing with the situation, updating the driver as necessary.


So that wouldn't be possible if the driver was a microprocessor?
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


Pretty sure workers rights are primarily aimed at ensuring those with less punching power in 'the commons' are able to maintain their fair share of the pie they helped to make. Not arbitrarily demanding larger slices.


What Roger is alluding to is the much vaunted "development then trikle down" approach which our superiors have been beavering away at for nigh on forty years. Its f#king brilliant and should start paying dividends anytime soon. Or so im told. Shocked
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/130-halewood-car-part-jobs-13345178#ICID=FB-Liv-main

Perhaps if they'd had a union like the train guys do...


They had a union. The union refused to accept a pay freeze or cut, so lost their members jobs to those willing to work cheaper for the same company elsewhere.

Did you read the article Citizen?


Yes I did. Did you read my post?

Perhaps if they'd had a union like the train guys do...
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M.C
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
workers rights

Are we all absolutely clear that every right you enjoy must ultimately be paid for by someone else?

The improvement of the commons comes from baking a bigger pie, not from individuals demanding larger slices for themselves.

Arbeit macht frei.

I'm not entirely sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about people getting injured on the job, worthless (temp') contracts, cutting staff levels to a point where public safety's put at risk*. Having a healthy, productive workforce's more beneficial than a companies bottom line.

*all of which I've seen first hand
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
[qu
I'm not entirely sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about people getting injured on the job, worthless (temp') contracts, cutting staff levels to a point where public safety's put at risk*. Having a healthy, productive workforce's more beneficial than a companies bottom line.

*all of which I've seen first hand


All of which can be hidden by creating a whole strata of middle-income middle-class statistic fixers to obfuscate whats really going on.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:

Yes I did. Did you read my post?

Perhaps if they'd had a union like the train guys do...


They had a union like the train drivers do. It cost them their jobs. Thumbs Up


Have all the train drivers lost their jobs?
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Falco
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PostPosted: 22:16 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
Re point 2;

Driverless cars may well be expensive. However, this was primarily in respose to your claims that software can't understand rain or snow. Take a modern range rover for instance. It's not cheap (£150K in decent spec?), but it as an abs and monitoring system which can distinguish between gravel, ice, mud and tarmac and select a pre-defined driving mode (throttle, braking, cornering) to suit. If JLR can do it, presumably for less than £10K/unit, why not train manufacturers.


That isn't really the same thing though. It can tell what sort of modifications to the input are helpful in those conditions (and make a decent guess at when those conditions are occurring) but that is a far cry from being able to supply those inputs itself, in response to a dynamically changing situation.

asta1 wrote:
As another example, take Tesla. Now, don't get me wrong, these cars cannot quite drive autonomously on the public highway safely enough for a governemtn to risk with public transport. However, again, a rail system is much simpler. I propse that this exact software 'can' in its current form; respond to a previously uploaded defined signal, possibly assisted with GPS or wifi input, an decelerate to a stop in clearly defined conditions within a clearly defined distance. That's all that a train needs to do. It doesn't need to steer, it doesn't need to overtake, it doesn't need to route plan and most importantly it doesn't need to deal with other rail users (Human managed route planners should sort this well ahead of time when deciding the schedule). Trains, as far as software goes, are much, much easier than cars.


Tesla (and others) autopilots can't drive cars any more than cruise controls can. The range of inputs they can meaningfully interact with is quite small (and even so don't always work - see my previous link where the driver had his hands off the wheel for all but 30 seconds of the 45 minute journey). They work, but only for a limited set of circumstances and responding to complex traffic flows is not amongst them.

asta1 wrote:
As for comms. Good point. It's going to be expensive, it needs to be reliable and it needs to have multiple failsafes. But, the internet can do this. It's already integral to most of our services, so it's not such a strech to rely on it once again. Plus, for many trains, there's already infrastructure for electricity, GPS tracking and even onboard wifi, so some comms wire shouldn't be impossible.


I am not at all sure the internet can actually do this. As far as I know the emergency services don't use the internet for telemetry/communication, it has its own network (as of July supposedly). I would say that major public transit systems would also need their own, parallel infrastructure for such things. GPS? Not sure the publicly available civilian satellites would give good enough resolution (I think it is 2 meters or something) for actually controlling a train with no driver).

I am very much in agreement with you that these are all solvable problems, they are just expensive ones


asta1 wrote:
Re point 4:

ROI. Yep, were not talking a couple of years for this. However, what was the ROI for the channel tunnel, the motorway network, HS2 or even the rail network originally? Governments aren't as directly beholden to stakeholders, so a long term project with high cost, but tangible long term benefit can go ahead. In terms of service and long term cost reduction, this ticks the box. In terms of long term employment and therefore political appetitie for the initiative? Not so much.


Yup, that is exactly the problem. Long term thinking is not very much in fashion at the moment.


Ta for the well thought out response! It's a really interesting problem. I don't think it will be a technological problem that sees us get autonomous cars before autonomous trains.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 22:17 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
the government keep ticket revenue and pay Southern a fixed fee for operating it.
Can you see why the left wing unions are concentrating their commuter/tax payer blackmail on this particular route now, or do you need it explaining in even more simple terms?


How is that holding the taxpayers hostage? If the drivers were to be paid 100K, the government doesn't have to cover the difference, that comes out of Southern's pocket's, doesn't it?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
The range of inputs they can meaningfully interact with is quite small but for a train to be self driving, the "go" button needs automating and the "stop" button needs automating.

Some Boeing airplanes can land themselves using autopilot. Hopefully one day the technology will exist to make self driving trains.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
then the taxes people pay at the upper end can be spent on development and productivity csn go up and that pie can get bigger.

This over 24% pay increase that ASLEF is demanding, does that mean that the trains will carry 24% more people?

Perhaps they'll go 24% faster?
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Falco
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
The range of inputs they can meaningfully interact with is quite small but for a train to be self driving, the "go" button needs automating and the "stop" button needs automating.

Some Boeing airplanes can land themselves using autopilot. Hopefully one day the technology will exist to make self driving trains.


"For Every Complex Problem, There Is an Answer That Is Clear, Simple, and Wrong"

As has been covered, there is significantly more to a train than go and stop.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 23:04 - 18 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Ribenapigeon wrote:
then the taxes people pay at the upper end can be spent on development and productivity csn go up and that pie can get bigger.

This over 24% pay increase that ASLEF is demanding, does that mean that the trains will carry 24% more people?

Perhaps they'll go 24% faster?


Did the CEOs of US Companies double the profitability of their companies between 1994 and 2003 to justify that same level of increase in their pay? ( the answer is no, BTW).

Did they produce 276 more times value for the company than the average worker in 2015? (debatable)
https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/ceo_worker_ratio.png?w=720&quality=85

Pay and performance are (at best) orthogonal, whichever end of the scale you look at.
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Lupo
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PostPosted: 00:19 - 19 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
So that wouldn't be possible if the driver was a microprocessor?


Yes if you put enough money into it. You still will need people in the control room to deal with those emergencies, then the flexibility to change the programmed route of a train quickly. A system to check what stations are or not manned. Every car in a train, for not saying every passenger alarm , will need a two way communication system, aka a radio. And you are depending on customers to carry out instructions given remotely by some bloke.

There is more but for the sake of brevity lets say that it will be insanely expensive and the more stuff you add to a system the more prone to failure it becomes, something that railways cannot afford.

mpd72 wrote:
Because when there's a strike Southern still get paid but the treasury doesn't get the ticket revenue and also has to pay refunds.


Oh yeah, lets not blame the Government for signing the most stupid contract ever. You will run Southern, we guarantee you x amount of revenue and if you don't, we will pay the difference and do not worry if you run a shit service, we will pay compensation to customers too.

Southern is making a mint out of the conflict. 50 million so far paid by the Government. With millions more saved in maintenance as it has operated a reduced service.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 06:06 - 19 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
The range of inputs they can meaningfully interact with is quite small but for a train to be self driving, the "go" button needs automating and the "stop" button needs automating.



Not sure if serious. You seem to overlook the fact that there are certain areas when tracks are shared by different lines, e.g. I believe Westminster tube station has District and also Circle Line trains coming in at the same platform. Also the fact that some times of the day are busier than others so more or less trains are needed, with varying speeds.

You'd need a small team of mathematicians and computer programmers to work out the logic of running the trains smoothly with contingencies set in for errors and problems, making use of historical and current passenger data for routes and stations which in itself becomes a challenge in statistics rather than precision so you can never have it perfect. And that's just on paper. Next you need the Tesla Motors types to fit all the bits that let the train spot when it's raining, snowing, a suicider is on the line, an earthquake is happening, the mass of the train, and the A.I needs coding to work with these inputs alongside the strict schedule it needs to abide by. Then you can automate your stop and go buttons Thumbs Up
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 19 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
If the union would stop fecking about purely to attack the Tories, whilst pretending it's a trade dispute, the treasury could have been making a nice little profit over the last couple of years, instead of handing it to a train company like they do with the other franchises.

Turning down a 24% pay rise to bring a 4 day week to over £60K is nonsense. It's quite clear that Southern could offer the moon on a stick and the unions would still call strikes to hurt the Tory government. It's a farce.


If the shareholders, of the parent company running the franchise, would stop fecking about and agree terms, the problem would go away.
But the fact remains, as long as there are people on strike the greater the shareholder's profits, (people on strike don't get paid)!
As usual public money disappearing into the bottomless pit of shareholder profits, for very little in return.
There is no incentive whatsoever for the franchise operator to resolve the problem, they get paid whatever happens, profits go up; even when they fcuk it up the government just hands them more cash.
The franchise operator's top priority is to maximise its profits for its shareholders, (its customers and the government are secondary concerns), currently the shareholders are laughing all the way to the bank!

But you knew all this anyway, it was discussed, ad nauseam, in the previous thread you started!
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Falco
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 19 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Falco wrote:

Did the CEOs of US Companies double the profitability of their companies between 1994 and 2003 to justify that same level of increase in their pay?

Train drivers are not CEO's over their own companies are they?
CEO's are not forcing their company to give them silly pay rises by going on strike and stopping the company from operating are they?


No one is forcing Southern to use unionised drivers (Union membership is not compulsory). If southern are so desperate to run the trains I am sure they could find some willing strike-breakers (at competitive rates).

mpd72 wrote:
The board of directors, who own the company can choose to pay the CEO whatever they want. They own it, it's their money.


Are you suggesting that southern doesn't use it's own money to pay the drivers? Or that it can't decide the rates it pays them?

mpd72 wrote:
Bit of an odd, if not irrelevant comparison.


You are drawing an arbitrary distinction, the roles are not identical but they are certainly analogous.
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