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bhinso
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see PC Khan wading in.
"Londoners cannot wait until 2040". No doubt he's going to spend lots of money getting the infrastructure sorted for electrics right now then.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, why not? It's not his money.

Never forget: his dad drove a bus.
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:
Codezombie wrote:
Anecdotally by the people that run the refineries, a single refinery uses enough power to run two mid sized cities.

Source [1]?
It sounds like high estimate x1000, must be Greenpeace or some such.


Nah not the assholes at Greenpeace, apparently it was a PR chap who works for the Refinery talking to Robert LLewellyn while he was making an episode of "How do they do it" 1)
Apparently doing some digging refineries use roughly between 345GWh/y to 1866 GWh/y.

While the total numbers for usage for US refineries is available 2) we can sort of extrapolate a figure for the average over all US refineries (which is going to low ball the figure slightly, as some refineries are small, others large, but should give us a figure for a mid sized refinery)

So there are 137 refineries in the US using 47,388,000,000 kwh between them over the course of a year, or 345GWh per year of power each.

The three largest refineries in the UK however, used 5600GWh between them or 1,866 GWh a year each ( source 1 and is based on a UN document) (Total UK power production is around 2.2TWh)

Digging into Leicester city council's info 3) shows that Leicester itself uses about 450Gwh a year. So I think the PR chap might have been exaggerating slightly, or he was talking about one of the big UK refineries and referring to Leicester, coventry and the surrounding areas.

Still using publicly available data, it shows that a mid sized Refinery uses at least the same amount of power as a mid sized city, a big Refinery could easily use the power of two cities.
Given it takes around 4-5kW to refine one gallon of oil, so its not actually that unbelievable.


Sources
1) https://youtu.be/BQpX-9OyEr4?t=108
(bear in mind Kryton is a massive EV supporter though)

2) https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_capfuel_dcu_nus_a.htm

3) http://cmispublic.harborough.gov.uk/CMIS5/Document.ashx?czJKcaeAi5tUFL1DTL2UE4zNRBcoShgo=q6bDSOeytvm8S9JyvohEM4WhBVDVWNN%2BK%2BEZAwvPrQRcQpPxESr3Uw%3D%3D&rUzwRPf%2BZ3zd4E7Ikn8Lyw%3D%3D=pwRE6AGJFLDNlh225F5QMaQWCtPHwdhUfCZ%2FLUQzgA2uL5jNRG4jdQ%3D%3D&mCTIbCubSFfXsDGW9IXnlg%3D%3D=hFflUdN3100%3D&kCx1AnS9%2FpWZQ40DXFvdEw%3D%3D=hFflUdN3100%3D&uJovDxwdjMPoYv%2BAJvYtyA%3D%3D=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&FgPlIEJYlotS%2BYGoBi5olA%3D%3D=NHdURQburHA%3D&d9Qjj0ag1Pd993jsyOJqFvmyB7X0CSQK=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&WGewmoAfeNR9xqBux0r1Q8Za60lavYmz=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&WGewmoAfeNQ16B2MHuCpMRKZMwaG1PaO=ctNJFf55vVA%3D
(sorry for the massive link, thats government webpages for you. page 25)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Codezombie wrote:
apparently it was a PR chap who works for the Refinery talking to Robert LLewellyn

<eye-roll.gif>
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 15:30 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Codezombie wrote:
apparently it was a PR chap who works for the Refinery talking to Robert LLewellyn

<eye-roll.gif>


Not that he was that wrong though. By PR, I meant head of engineering for the Refinery Wink ( I rewatched the video )

Unless of course you are rolling your eyes at Kryton...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is towards the swivel-eyed end of the ecomental spectrum.

But it's really more at the characterisation of refineries by how much energy they use, as though they're net consumers.

If only they had some sort of source of fuel for heating the distillation towers and crackers.
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
He is towards the swivel-eyed end of the ecomental spectrum.

But it's really more at the characterisation of refineries by how much energy they use, as though they're net consumers.

If only they had some sort of source of fuel for heating the distillation towers and crackers.


Krytons all right, he's just enthusiastic, but is usually planted in whats achievable, you have to go to things like solar roadways to get to the real loons.

The figures I quoted are for electricity usage alone, not for total fuel usage which is a fair bit higher. If you go to the US figures I linked to, you'll see the electricity usage figures I listed are just one part of the power requirements figures. Turns out Refineries are real power hogs. So that 1800GWh/y is likely on top of the oil they also burn as well.

(No idea what "purchased steam" means in those US figures though, is it delivered in buckets? Computer games, who knows...)
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 08:00 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Another option would be embedding charging lines of some form into the roadway with cars being charged by the road on longer trips.


Im-a-Ridah wrote:


You need to either embed inductors in the road surface or have a charging rail. Charging points already exist but you cannot drive while using one.


My bad, I thought you meant charging 'by the road' as in charging by the roadside, like charging points where you plug in, rather than doing it via inductance.

They tried it years ago with busses in South Korea. Never took off for some reason.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So when are we getting these?

I'd drive one (assuming you still get the music too).

http://101videogames.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/89499_large.jpg
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Tracer1234
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
So when are we getting these?

I'd drive one (assuming you still get the music too).

http://101videogames.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/89499_large.jpg


Yeah, but they only have cassette tape players.
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Bricktop
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PostPosted: 19:25 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

In times of national emergency, the mobile network 'goes dark'.

By 2040, so will these cars.

Enjoy your curfews.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracer1234 wrote:
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
So when are we getting these?

I'd drive one (assuming you still get the music too).

http://101videogames.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/89499_large.jpg


Yeah, but they only have cassette tape players.


Thinking ThinkingThinkingThinkingThinking

I'm still in.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're at it again, any passing bandwagon and on they hop... Rolling Eyes
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grr666
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
So when are we getting these?

I'd drive one (assuming you still get the music too).

http://101videogames.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/89499_large.jpg

Only worth playing with the Negcon controller.

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Tracer1234
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PostPosted: 00:39 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:


Doh! Brick Wall
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Bricktop
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PostPosted: 08:31 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:


Last week Oceania was at war with Eastasia...

Rolling Eyes
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 08:55 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracer1234 wrote:


You can't even do 60mph in rush hour most of the time. Rolling Eyes
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bikertomm
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PostPosted: 00:17 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess who used the search function Dance!


'Electric cars' have been grating on me ever since this whole 2040 nonsense...


People keep harping on about how great they are, and how quickly they can charge. Confused

Are people really that shortsighted?



Firstly;

1. The prices are obviously ridiculously high.

2. Where does electricity come from?

3. How do the quoted miles of range equate in a real world test scenario?

4. The quoted battery lifetimes are likely conducted in extreme test conditions with immaculate charging etc etc.. The average wolly brain will get home, battery half charged, stick it on 'fast' charge.

What are the effects long term on the battery doing this? I hazard a guess it ruins battery life quite substantially.


5. What happens when your 60+k car is worth 50p in 5 years time?


'But dey charge in 15 minz brooo' No.


I've no doubting the performance from them will be staggering at some point, but at the moment, imo you'd have to be mad. Thumbs Up
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-.
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PostPosted: 01:41 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

bikertomm wrote:
Guess who used the search function Dance!

Its working for you? Shocked
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bikertomm
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PostPosted: 09:13 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
bikertomm wrote:
Guess who used the search function Dance!

Its working for you? Shocked


Nope. I resorted to Google Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:20 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

bikertomm wrote:
1. The prices are obviously ridiculously high.

That's only because they're made of scarce materials. Economies of scale will take care of that because we're living in Opposite World.


bikertomm wrote:
2. Where does electricity come from?

Rainbows.


bikertomm wrote:
5. What happens when your 60+k car is worth 50p in 5 years time?

Your finance company is sadface. I expect that demand from Krytens probably exceeds supply right now (like for lithium) but it'll be interesting to see what happens to finance costs when it plateaus.


bikertomm wrote:
I've no doubting the performance from them will be staggering at some point, but at the moment, imo you'd have to be mad. Thumbs Up

They might make sense in That London. I mean, a Nissan Leaf with all the subsidies and financed on a hand-it-back-and-run deal, not a Tesla.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The naysaying here is fantastic.

The world will be quite a different place when the black stuff begins to properly run out. People will probably be quite glad of their slow humming e-machines getting them to town and back.

Personally, I most look forward to the day when congested roads start to smell like hot scalextric instead of diesel fumes Very Happy
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
The naysaying here is fantastic.

The world will be quite a different place when the black stuff begins to properly run out. People will probably be quite glad of their slow humming e-machines getting them to town and back.

Personally, I most look forward to the day when congested roads start to smell like hot scalextric instead of diesel fumes Very Happy



You're peddling the same naive stupidity as was sold to the gullible when I was a kid in the 70s, and before then in the "nuclear power so cheap we won't have to meter it" Jetsons era.

IF oil does start running out then the current resource driven, largely so far proxy, wars will become far more desperate and larger. Oil (and gas) doesn't just power IC engines it is used in almost everything else. Whether that's simple lubricants, natural gas used in the production of fertilisers, asphalt on the roads or any one of the other myriad daily chemicals our modern lifestyle depends on, oil and associated hydrocarbon byproducts are essential for the existence of modern civilization.

If things become desperate then you won't be allowed to travel about wasting such precious materials on roads. The compact city model will likely become a reality. Your everyday necessity will be provided within it, and travel will not be needed, except by those doing essential work and authorised to travel outside the city zone. Itchy has hinted at this "city utopia" and the UN mandarins have postulated on this ideal model for nearly 3 decades.

The only allowed vehicles will be essential likely AI drone driven vehicles, whether that's for short or long haul. Outside essential transport the security forces or drones will likely be the main users of any road or rail type network.

All this is IF modern western style civilization survives into the distant future. As it is, it is in severe decline. The modern educated native doesn't reproduce. The Third World imports to replace them do in larger numbers, but do not assimilate or integrate, and would instead desire to rule their own cultural ghettos, just like they had back home. If this continues, then a patchwork of these will be spread across the nations affected, and civil strife on a serious scale is highly likely. At some point, I'd guess within 3 to 4 generations maximum the entire edifice will become non-viable and will implode into chaos.

Pie in the sky dreams of nuclear powered, super modern methods of transportation will be the least of our worries. The 21st century was sold as a hi-tech utopia, to those old enough to remember. Instead the hi-tech that we have is a mass of consumer gadgets, that make the Star Trek communicator look like it was from era of Alexander Graham Bell, but makes the populace dependent, distracted and more stupid than ever. The problems of the past haven't gone away. If anything they have become steadily worse, and this looks to continue for the foreseeable future.

I expect the usual "tin foil conspiracy theories" or Corporal Frazer, "We're all doomed" meme style responses, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I won't be around. You might, or maybe your kids or grandkids if you have any. Enjoy the ride.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThoughtControl wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
The naysaying here is fantastic.

The world will be quite a different place when the black stuff begins to properly run out. People will probably be quite glad of their slow humming e-machines getting them to town and back.

Personally, I most look forward to the day when congested roads start to smell like hot scalextric instead of diesel fumes Very Happy



You're peddling the same naive stupidity as was sold to the gullible when I was a kid in the 70s, and before then in the "nuclear power so cheap we won't have to meter it" Jetsons era.

IF oil does start running out then the current resource driven, largely so far proxy, wars will become far more desperate and larger. Oil (and gas) doesn't just power IC engines it is used in almost everything else. Whether that's simple lubricants, natural gas used in the production of fertilisers, asphalt on the roads or any one of the other myriad daily chemicals our modern lifestyle depends on, oil and associated hydrocarbon byproducts are essential for the existence of modern civilization.

If things become desperate then you won't be allowed to travel about wasting such precious materials on roads. The compact city model will likely become a reality. Your everyday necessity will be provided within it, and travel will not be needed, except by those doing essential work and authorised to travel outside the city zone. Itchy has hinted at this "city utopia" and the UN mandarins have postulated on this ideal model for nearly 3 decades.

The only allowed vehicles will be essential likely AI drone driven vehicles, whether that's for short or long haul. Outside essential transport the security forces or drones will likely be the main users of any road or rail type network.

All this is IF modern western style civilization survives into the distant future. As it is, it is in severe decline. The modern educated native doesn't reproduce. The Third World imports to replace them do in larger numbers, but do not assimilate or integrate, and would instead desire to rule their own cultural ghettos, just like they had back home. If this continues, then a patchwork of these will be spread across the nations affected, and civil strife on a serious scale is highly likely. At some point, I'd guess within 3 to 4 generations maximum the entire edifice will become non-viable and will implode into chaos.

Pie in the sky dreams of nuclear powered, super modern methods of transportation will be the least of our worries. The 21st century was sold as a hi-tech utopia, to those old enough to remember. Instead the hi-tech that we have is a mass of consumer gadgets, that make the Star Trek communicator look like it was from era of Alexander Graham Bell, but makes the populace dependent, distracted and more stupid than ever. The problems of the past haven't gone away. If anything they have become steadily worse, and this looks to continue for the foreseeable future.

I expect the usual "tin foil conspiracy theories" or Corporal Frazer, "We're all doomed" meme style responses, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I won't be around. You might, or maybe your kids or grandkids if you have any. Enjoy the ride.


Or maybe, we'll power IC engines with an alternative biofuel?
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 17:18 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

A chilling summation from (gender neutral) person Thought Control. In my book, a very accurate one. Except.... In all these future predictions, no-one seems to be taking account of the billions (?) due to shuffle within the next ten, twenty years. You name a developed country and it has a top heavy population of increasingly resource hungry, non productive geriatrics. The demographic time bomb is that their kids are not reproducing whilst those of the (ahem) less 'developed' areas are at it like knives.
Yes, these burgeoning populations will demand their share of the diminishing pie, but when push comes to survival shove, they don't seem to have the technologies necessary for a quick war of extermination.
Whatever that outcome, the demands for non re-newables should start to taper off quite substantially well within the time frame being discussed. We might actually be able to eke out resources until demand matches the much lower demands of the future in as Little as fifty years.
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