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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 25 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

I agree although speaking to people it does seem to be (somewhat) down to luck when you come of age, if it's in the middle of the worst recession since 19-dickety-two, or under Thatcher, or any of the other (totally deliberate) economic oopsies. It's another reason why you shouldn't let people behind computers gamble with the economy Rolling Eyes


Aye, it's a crepe shoot.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:41 - 25 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Part of the problem is a lost generation due to the economic crash and mass immigration [even though many of them claim to support mass immigration]. This means there isn't enough economic power to pull the country through those problems. If you are playing a board game and you start at say -50k in student debt, -300k in house prices, it's hardly worth bothering to play the game. "paying off your huge debts and then die" is hardly a great aspiration you'll get young people to sign up to, and that is basically the one the Lib/Lab/Con have been offering. The "sweet spot" is get a job on 40k a year and work 20 hrs/week, i.e earn 20k/yr, and that's for your most qualified people.

I agree although speaking to people it does seem to be (somewhat) down to luck when you come of age, if it's in the middle of the worst recession since 19-dickety-two, or under Thatcher, or any of the other (totally deliberate) economic oopsies. It's another reason why you shouldn't let people behind computers gamble with the economy Rolling Eyes


Any of the the issues is bad in of itself but the real problem is the combination of tuition fees that were tripled and then tripled again, an economic depression, house prices going up like rockets, and immigrants flooding all of the entry level jobs. Mix all of that together and then basically you get what we have now, essentially a lost generation. This lost generation is needed more than ever with the aging population. Heads should roll, literally, for this.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 01:46 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Any of the the issues is bad in of itself but the real problem is the combination of tuition fees that were tripled and then tripled again, an economic depression, house prices going up like rockets, and immigrants flooding all of the entry level jobs. Mix all of that together and then basically you get what we have now, essentially a lost generation.


I do slightly take exception to this 'lost generation' thing. Yes, admittedly, it's probably harder for people of 'my' generation to suceed than it might have been for my folks (I'm 22), but it's still by no means impossible. Seems to me that so many people at this point in their lives take the attitude that they're doooomed so whats the point and never actually try to achieve anything.

Maybe people starting jobs now just have to adjust their expectations. We have a fair bit of student debt. I myself have about £30ks worth, and I'm actually doing better on that front than most students. Yeah housing is really expensive now compared to 30 years ago, but again, apply yourself in a decent field and home ownership is still very much achievable, it might just be later in life. Worth considering that whlst these facts are new and unusual in the UK, they aren't that unusual in many countries, the US for instance has waay more student debt than us, whilst home ownership in many other countries is really quite low compared to here. Despite this, they arent all saying 'what's the point, minimum wage job and never even try.'

The real problem is overinflated expectations, not that the situation is somehow untenable for the young. Again, it's definitely harder now and we've all been sold this future by our parents and our teachers that we will automatically have the same or better quality of life than the previous generation, because progress, and the reality is that this isn't always the case. But again, it's still not impossibe.

If you do a masters in modern art from Salford for instance, you're probably not going to walk straight into a well paying job. It's by no means impossible, but you've made life difficult for yourself. As a counterpoint, if you get good grades, choose the right course (STEM, Finance, Architecture, Law, Medicine) at the right uni and get some work experience and plan ahead with a bit of drive and ambition you can still live the middle class dream your parents were peddled. People applying for these course must know this. The stats for employability and starting salary are available for almost all courses, so it's not like people can say they weren't warned... But again, note that if you make the right decisions, it can still be done. Also, this isn't just limited to Uni (although that's where my actual first hand experience lies)

So having said that, the system isn't ideal. So, what will actually change? Well, first things first, in the short term, the system probably won't. Too many people are too invested and the baby boomers aren't going to aid with, or vote for, measures that turn their £500k houses into £200k houses, however much it might help the overall economy. So we're stuck with it until enough of them die putting the assets back into circulation and changing the political climate, or the system becomes completely unsustainable and naturally collapses. Neither are likely to happen fast enough to aid the current crop of students, including myself.

So, we have to work with the system, but something needs to change. This 'something' will have to be us, the young. We will need to change from the current path which is rammed down our throats (School, Uni, Job).

So how to do it? Be pragmatic. Uni expensive and giving you few marketable benefits? Don't go, get an apprenticeship or a trade. Impossible to live in London on the average grad wage? Move away. Arts degree unlikely to get you a secure job? Don't spend £40k on it. It's not rocket science. Throw in the fact that the job market is getting increasingly more global, and if it genuinely is terrible in the UK, people will just move away, which will sort of solve the problem in and of itself.

Other than that, best you can do is be organised and ruthless. The days of swanning through life and somehow drifting into a top job just because you went to uni are over (if they ever actually existed). So make a proper long term plan, choose your end goal and do everything in your power to make it happen.

Ultimately, not everyone can win in the current system. But there are things you as an individual can do to ensure that you do. And really, thats all that matters.

I suppose I should acknowledge that not everyone wants that particular dream of financial stability/success and their own home, but if you don't why would you be in this thread complaining about how hard it is to gain those things?

I got a bit preachy there, and I should admit this is merely my own philosophy and experience, but it does bug me when people start moaning about this stuff as if abject poverty is a foregone conclusion for all students, and there is nothing the individual can do to change that.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Any of the the issues is bad in of itself but the real problem is the combination of tuition fees that were tripled and then tripled again, an economic depression, house prices going up like rockets, and immigrants flooding all of the entry level jobs. Mix all of that together and then basically you get what we have now, essentially a lost generation. This lost generation is needed more than ever with the aging population. Heads should roll, literally, for this.


Coupled with the fact that this generation has a greater number of people with a false sense of entitlement. This is raising earnings expectations as the majority now think they'll walk into a high paid job if they go to University doing a degree in "Media Studies".

When reality dawns on some, they hide away in education thinking the longer they stay away from work, the greater the chances of landing a six figure salary, whilst building up even bigger debts, which many seem to think they don't need to pay back. Generation Snowflake too special to do anything else. Corbyn has realised many are thick enough to fall for empty promises of writing the debt off, so will probably win the next election.

Ironically, if you look at those who went into a trade straight from school, by the time they reach the age of the Peter Pan students, many have their foot on the housing ladder and are doing well for themselves.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

Coupled with the fact that this generation has a greater number of people with a false sense of entitlement. This is raising earnings expectations as the majority now think they'll walk into a high paid job if they go to University doing a degree in "Media Studies".

When reality dawns on some, they hide away in education thinking the longer they stay away from work, the greater the chances of landing a six figure salary, whilst building up even bigger debts, which many seem to think they don't need to pay back. Generation Snowflake too special to do anything else. Corbyn has realised many are thick enough to fall for empty promises of writing the debt off, so will probably win the next election.

Ironically, if you look at those who went into a trade straight from school, by the time they reach the age of the Peter Pan students, many have their foot on the housing ladder and are doing well for themselves.


Doing media studies is always going to be a bit of a dead end. My concerns are more about restricting the potential of people who could otherwise have done really impressive stuff. I suspect many of them will just move to Australia or the US, and in doing so escape their fees, and then do the impressive stuff there instead, benefiting their economy not ours.

asta1 wrote:


I do slightly take exception to this 'lost generation' thing. Yes, admittedly, it's probably harder for people of 'my' generation to suceed than it might have been for my folks (I'm 22), but it's still by no means impossible. Seems to me that so many people at this point in their lives take the attitude that they're doooomed so whats the point and never actually try to achieve anything.

Maybe people starting jobs now just have to adjust their expectations. We have a fair bit of student debt. I myself have about £30ks worth, and I'm actually doing better on that front than most students. Yeah housing is really expensive now compared to 30 years ago, but again, apply yourself in a decent field and home ownership is still very much achievable, it might just be later in life. Worth considering that whlst these facts are new and unusual in the UK, they aren't that unusual in many countries, the US for instance has waay more student debt than us, whilst home ownership in many other countries is really quite low compared to here. Despite this, they arent all saying 'what's the point, minimum wage job and never even try.'

The real problem is overinflated expectations, not that the situation is somehow untenable for the young. Again, it's definitely harder now and we've all been sold this future by our parents and our teachers that we will automatically have the same or better quality of life than the previous generation, because progress, and the reality is that this isn't always the case. But again, it's still not impossibe.

If you do a masters in modern art from Salford for instance, you're probably not going to walk straight into a well paying job. It's by no means impossible, but you've made life difficult for yourself. As a counterpoint, if you get good grades, choose the right course (STEM, Finance, Architecture, Law, Medicine) at the right uni and get some work experience and plan ahead with a bit of drive and ambition you can still live the middle class dream your parents were peddled. People applying for these course must know this. The stats for employability and starting salary are available for almost all courses, so it's not like people can say they weren't warned... But again, note that if you make the right decisions, it can still be done. Also, this isn't just limited to Uni (although that's where my actual first hand experience lies)

So having said that, the system isn't ideal. So, what will actually change? Well, first things first, in the short term, the system probably won't. Too many people are too invested and the baby boomers aren't going to aid with, or vote for, measures that turn their £500k houses into £200k houses, however much it might help the overall economy. So we're stuck with it until enough of them die putting the assets back into circulation and changing the political climate, or the system becomes completely unsustainable and naturally collapses. Neither are likely to happen fast enough to aid the current crop of students, including myself.

So, we have to work with the system, but something needs to change. This 'something' will have to be us, the young. We will need to change from the current path which is rammed down our throats (School, Uni, Job).

So how to do it? Be pragmatic. Uni expensive and giving you few marketable benefits? Don't go, get an apprenticeship or a trade. Impossible to live in London on the average grad wage? Move away. Arts degree unlikely to get you a secure job? Don't spend £40k on it. It's not rocket science. Throw in the fact that the job market is getting increasingly more global, and if it genuinely is terrible in the UK, people will just move away, which will sort of solve the problem in and of itself.

Other than that, best you can do is be organised and ruthless. The days of swanning through life and somehow drifting into a top job just because you went to uni are over (if they ever actually existed). So make a proper long term plan, choose your end goal and do everything in your power to make it happen.

Ultimately, not everyone can win in the current system. But there are things you as an individual can do to ensure that you do. And really, thats all that matters.

I suppose I should acknowledge that not everyone wants that particular dream of financial stability/success and their own home, but if you don't why would you be in this thread complaining about how hard it is to gain those things?

I got a bit preachy there, and I should admit this is merely my own philosophy and experience, but it does bug me when people start moaning about this stuff as if abject poverty is a foregone conclusion for all students, and there is nothing the individual can do to change that.


You've really just proved my point. If you study a useful subject and work really hard then... just about managing. That means no time or money to invest in new ideas, in starting and growing a business, basically a Tesco value economy. On a national level that corresponds to catastrophic decline.

As for houses the best option is to create public sector rented flats and houses at super low rates, separate from the private sector housing stock, which are not available to buy. That mostly preserves current prices but makes homes more available. The "help to inflate" programme just pushes up prices.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Doing media studies is always going to be a bit of a dead end. My concerns are more about restricting the potential of people who could otherwise have done really impressive stuff. I suspect many of them will just move to Australia or the US, and in doing so escape their fees, and then do the impressive stuff there instead, benefiting their economy not ours.


Going by the type of militant Snowflakes threatening to leave, Australia and the US are welcome to them. Most expect everything to be handed to them on a plate, so will be very little value to the UK.

There are several on here who fit that role perfectly.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:


You've really just proved my point. If you study a useful subject and work really hard then... just about managing. That means no time or money to invest in new ideas, in starting and growing a business, basically a Tesco value economy. On a national level that corresponds to catastrophic decline.

As for houses the best option is to create public sector rented flats and houses at super low rates, separate from the private sector housing stock, which are not available to buy. That mostly preserves current prices but makes homes more available. The "help to inflate" programme just pushes up prices.


I don't think I have. My point is that today, as at all other times, those who are most driven and best qualified will suceed. That hasn't changed and it isn't impossible in the current system. If people want to leave school to start businesses and their product and company is viable, they'll make money and live comfortably. If it isn't, they'll fail. Seems fair to me.

Also worth noting in a Uni context that despite what some students say, uni is basically a part time job at best, so if you want to do some other work or start a business on the side, you've got at least 20 hours a week free to do that. I, for instance am working on a novel biotech product for cancer drug delivery. Early days, but I'm not struggling for time to play about with it and if I can secure first round funding and it takes off, I'll be laughing.

After uni, either you're working a good job with the expectation of advancement, and so probably don't have time to focus on 'other' jobs, or you're cruising along in an easy job, presumably looking for something better anyway.

Those who aspire to 'just get by' will probably end up achieving that goal, but you don't have to, what you make of yourself is down to individual merit and ambition, as it always has been and no government policy short of literal communism will change that.

As for housing, it's difficult. Fundamentally, housing is expensive because its a valuable asset in high demand and with limited supply. The price is set by the market and that's fine. Either people can afford them in the long term, or they can't. If they can't, the price will drop and the market self regulates. I don't 'expect' houses to be cheap because I want one, I expect them to be expensive because I want one.

Having said that, rent prices are a real issue and actually the main issue for many people my age. For many, you can either pay rent or save for a mortgage, but both is difficult. I'm personally quite lucky in that I'm starting work in Burton-on-Trent, where rent is cheap and it is still possible to buy a nice house for £130k, or 2.5(ish) times my salary. In London however, or even somewhere like Cambridge or central Birmingham, you'll really struggle. Living at home is an option, but it really limits your oppurtunities to be tied to a certain location.

Finally, there does seem to be this idea that all young people somehow 'deserve' to suceed, irrespective of their own input, and government policy kind of sways towards this. I disagree with this idea on a fundamental level. I believe everyone should have the oppurtunity to suceed, and current free education and student loans etc allow this, but really, in a system where everyone is successful, does anyone actually win? If you want something, work for it. Trust me when I say I'm not in this game to 'just about manage'.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

Going by the type of militant Snowflakes threatening to leave, Australia and the US are welcome to them. Most expect everything to be handed to them on a plate, so will be very little value to the UK.

There are several on here who fit that role perfectly.


The snowflakes have no reason to leave, their salary will put them under the fees repayment threshold. The people who benefit from leaving are people earning big salaries because they will have to pay back their loan in full, and those who want to start businesses because they can divert that money into a business instead of into repaying debts for housing and tuition fees.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone can be successful but some will be more successful than others.

Everyone can go to uni but not all degrees are of equal worth.

Snowflakes cannot go to America as Trump would then be their president.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Everyone can be successful but some will be more successful than others.

Everyone can go to uni but not all degrees are of equal worth.

Snowflakes cannot go to America as Trump would then be their president.


But to have a strong economy a lot of people need to be really successful. Them pensions, national debt, and public services aren't going to pay for themselves!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
But to have a strong economy

A "strong economy" is:

1) People making and exporting things of value that other nations don't make.
2) People who stack the shelves for and cut the hair of type 1 people.

That economy can support a limited numbers of type 3 people: poets, artists, diversity champions, ISO auditors. Sadly, we're producing far too many of them. This is not sustainable. Then come the type 4: the zombies.

Do you want zombies? Because that's how you get zombies.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 20:55 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
But to have a strong economy

A "strong economy" is:

1) People making and exporting things of value that other nations don't make.
2) People who stack the shelves for and cut the hair of type 1 people.

That economy can support a limited numbers of type 3 people: poets, artists, diversity champions, ISO auditors. Sadly, we're producing far too many of them. This is not sustainable. Then come the type 4: the zombies.

Do you want zombies? Because that's how you get zombies.


I was thinking more about just having item 1 of a strong economy. Item 2 can be replaced by delivery drivers working evenings. Going to the shops is pretty inefficient.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 22:13 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

There are several on here who fit that role perfectly.


:wuv:

Sometimes, an insult from a person of low enough standing is kind of like a compliment.

Thank you sweety Thumbs Up
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
mpd72 wrote:

There are several on here who fit that role perfectly.


:wuv:

Sometimes, an insult from a person of low enough standing is kind of like a compliment.

Thank you sweety Thumbs Up


Sometimes, a person is so vain they automatically think they're being referred to when they’re not.

Having someone who doesn’t work and lodges with dossers of all nations, thinking i’m of lower standard, is kind of a compliment.

Thumbs Up
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-.
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:

I do slightly take exception to this 'lost generation' thing. Yes, admittedly, it's probably harder for people of 'my' generation to suceed than it might have been for my folks (I'm 22), but it's still by no means impossible. Seems to me that so many people at this point in their lives take the attitude that they're doooomed so whats the point and never actually try to achieve anything.

Maybe people starting jobs now just have to adjust their expectations. We have a fair bit of student debt. I myself have about £30ks worth, and I'm actually doing better on that front than most students. Yeah housing is really expensive now compared to 30 years ago, but again, apply yourself in a decent field and home ownership is still very much achievable, it might just be later in life. Worth considering that whlst these facts are new and unusual in the UK, they aren't that unusual in many countries, the US for instance has waay more student debt than us, whilst home ownership in many other countries is really quite low compared to here. Despite this, they arent all saying 'what's the point, minimum wage job and never even try.'

The real problem is overinflated expectations, not that the situation is somehow untenable for the young. Again, it's definitely harder now and we've all been sold this future by our parents and our teachers that we will automatically have the same or better quality of life than the previous generation, because progress, and the reality is that this isn't always the case. But again, it's still not impossibe.

People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*. I also disagree, home ownership in the S.East is out of reach of most people, the days of being an average joy owning a house are pretty much gone (again in the SE).

I find the well people in other countries don't own their own house attitude pretty patronising TBH. We historically have been a nation of home owners, I see home ownership as a major source of freedom (once it's paid off obviously), and wonder WTF is the point of working if you're not working towards something for yourself. It's not about entitlement, it's the status quo changing and being told to shut up and accept it.

*their parent(s) own their house on ordinary salaries, yet they can't even afford to rent a poxy 1 bed flat.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 26 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*.

[*] Nobody over the age of 25 should refer to dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".

Yes, bnp72, but really. Really.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:03 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*.

[*] Nobody over the age of 25 should refer to dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".

Yes, bnp72, but really. Really.


Now now, didn't have you down as one to use appeals to emotion in your arguments.

The good and bad sides to living in the parental home are entirely a question of subjective opinion. In some cultures* it's seen as a total failure, in other cultures** it's the norm until married out. In other cultures*** the parental home is given to the kids, at which point the parents move to a smaller building on the same plot of land.

The parental 'teat' argument only works if one is not contributing to family finances. But that's not the angle you seemed to be taking.

*Germany
**Italy
***Romania
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asta1
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*. I also disagree, home ownership in the S.East is out of reach of most people, the days of being an average joy owning a house are pretty much gone (again in the SE).


It's hard to argue that the S.East is an extreme case and obviously it's not ideal. That said, you say British people are traditionally home owning. Fair enough. But in the situation you present that is no longer possible.

So what do you actually propose? What is actually achievable? I don't care about how life should be, what can actually be done to change things?

Way I see it, what's really needed to return to a sustainable system for all is a full on housing market crash in the UK. We aren't talking a small one either. At what price point is a house in say London or the commuter belt actually affordable for the average Joe in the early stages of his career? On say an ok salary of £25k/year and a 5x salary multiplier, we're still only talking £125k plus deposit. For context, my mother bought her first house with a 2.5x salary mortgage.

To actually rectify the situation and return to the price/salary ratio enjoyed by our parents, the people currently owning almost anywhere in the country will need to lose at least 50% of the value of their biggest asset, an asset many rely on as a big part of their pension fund through downsizing etc. In London we're probably talking closer to a 80% reduction in value. No way in hell will measures that seek to do that ever be supported or passed, even if one ignores the economic impact of a crash like that on the country. Would your parents support those measures? Mine certainly wouldn't.

And really, help to buy, smaller deposits, bigger mortgages (all the current measures) are actually doing the exact opposite of that by effectively creating more demand as more people can theoretically afford these places.

I should also mention the whole 'source of freedom, once it's paid off' thing. How long will that actually take anyway? For most, and especially in the SE, even if you can buy straight out of school, you'll be paying a mortgage until you're 40+. Is that really different to renting? Either way it's money out your account every month for a roof over your head. I'd suggest that really, it's only made sense to buy a house vs renting in the past because the house is not just an asset, but an appreciating asset. We've already discussed how this is kind of a bad thing, but assuming house prices were artificially stabilised somehow to allow people onto the ladder, would it really be so appealing to buy in the first place?

Way I see it, Britons will just have to accept that in certain locations and in the short term, we will no longer be a nation of homeowners.

This'll change in time due to our top heavy population dynamics as all the current home owners die off and flood the market (a bit), but maybe people will just need to rent until their folks die or they finally reach a financial position where they've saved enough and advanced in their careers enough to buy, which could be quite late in life. Either that, or parents will need to remortgage their property (if they have any) to provide capital for their children to buy. Shitty stuation, sure, but what else is actually achievable at the current time?

I will conceed the point regarding rent though, it is prohibitive in some places and whilst this is market driven (which I like from an idealogical stanpoint), some sort of cap to ensure people can actually afford to live and save wouldn't be entirely terrible. Would significantly reduce demand for some classes of house as well, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Final point on this I suppose is this: You can't afford to buy in the SE, which is presumably not delivering the quality of life you'd like. So, why not move? Leeds returns a better ratio of house prices to salary I'm told and Bulgaria certainly does. Sounds callous, sure, but I'm actually deadly serious. What's tying you down to your current location?

So that's housing, what about the second question. Why work? Why indeed. Personally I don't see home ownership as the be all and end all for financial stability. It's something I want, it's something I'll work towards, but if the situation were different and I had to live in London for the right job, then I wouldn't just throw up my hands and say whats the point. Notwithstanding that at some point, you'll probably get promoted or save to a point where a house is viable, even in the short term a well paying job and the associated expendable income (however much it might be after expenses) is inherently valuabe and desirable, surely?

I think the main difference between our viewpoints is that I'm basically very selfish. I acknowledge that the situation is not ideal and I don't believe everyone can 'win' in the current system. I also concede that maybe a smaller proportion of people will 'win' now than 30 years ago, but some people will still 'win'. I aim to be amongst them and that's as far as my thoughts on this go.

TL:DR, yeah, life is a bit shit, but you've still gotta live it. The system isn't likely to change anytime soon, so best you can do is optimise your own situation within it.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:32 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
This'll change in time due to our top heavy population dynamics as all the current home owners die off and flood the market (a bit)


A more cynical prediction is this: Oldies start to die, multi-property landlords swoop in, buy up this new generation of vacant homes, prices stay high, rental situation doesn't change, proles no better than they were before.

Only solution is vastly more homes (built where they're needed) or vastly fewer people on the island.

Another solution would be ultra high taxes on extra homes that people choose to own after their first one. Remove all incentive for people looking at joining the parasitic non-value-producing landlord 'profession'.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 00:37 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:



Another solution would be ultra high taxes on extra homes that people choose to own after their first one. Remove all incentive for people looking at joining the parasitic non-value-producing landlord 'profession'.


There is already variable stamp duty depending on how much property equity you already own.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

There is already variable stamp duty depending on how much property equity you already own.


I thought there'd be something. Doesn't seem to act as much of a disincentive though. Aren't there far stricter rules in China? I dunno about multiple home ownership, but one interesting thing I've heard is that people need to be proven and registered inhabitants of the city they want to buy in, to prevent wealthy Shanghai types buying out properties and doing the parasite landlord thing in cheap areas thousands of km from where they actually live.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 01:14 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

I've heard is that people need to be proven and registered inhabitants of the city they want to buy in, to prevent wealthy Shanghai types buying out properties and doing the parasite landlord thing in cheap areas thousands of km from where they actually live.


Foreigners and that includes SAR and Autonomous region inhabitants and non Han have no restrictions.


AFAIK you can buy where your residence permit is registered without restrictions. If you move elsewhere you need to live and work there for 3-5 years (higher tier city longer) and then you can buy. Of course everything is leasehold so if you're a Rachmann type you might not get the lease renewed when it ends.
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PostPosted: 01:35 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*.

[*] Nobody over the age of 25 should refer to dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".

Yes, bnp72, but really. Really.

No just you, even he seems to have given up Wink What term would you prefer? Parent(s) house?

asta1 wrote:
It's hard to argue that the S.East is an extreme case and obviously it's not ideal. That said, you say British people are traditionally home owning. Fair enough. But in the situation you present that is no longer possible.

So what do you actually propose? What is actually achievable? I don't care about how life should be, what can actually be done to change things?

Way I see it, what's really needed to return to a sustainable system for all is a full on housing market crash in the UK. We aren't talking a small one either. At what price point is a house in say London or the commuter belt actually affordable for the average Joe in the early stages of his career? On say an ok salary of £25k/year and a 5x salary multiplier, we're still only talking £125k plus deposit. For context, my mother bought her first house with a 2.5x salary mortgage.

That London and the SE are a sign of things to come, other cities and regions are quickly heading in the same direction. So it's a choice of moving somewhere like Smilerland to be a home owner, or accepting you'll probably never be.

The Government could easily build more social housing or build 'cheap' starter homes, but of course they won't. They've actively supported the inflation of the housing market, almost as if they have a vested interest Thinking
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 02:57 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

No reason to expect people to die, just build more and tax overseas owners harshly.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

[*] Nobody over the age of 25 should refer to dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".

Yes, bnp72, but really. Really.

No just you, even he seems to have given up Wink What term would you prefer? Parent(s) house?


Do they "own" it? I thought it was a council flat. Hence why you, as a worker, have to contribute a token amount to the rent.
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