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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
Way I see it, what's really needed to return to a sustainable system for all is a full on housing market crash in the UK. We aren't talking a small one either. At what price point is a house in say London or the commuter belt actually affordable for the average Joe in the early stages of his career? On say an ok salary of 25k/year and a 5x salary multiplier, we're still only talking 125k plus deposit. For context, my mother bought her first house with a 2.5x salary mortgage.


25K a year? A couple will earn 32,500 on minimum wage if both working full time.
If you're referring to single occupants, there are plenty of 1 bedroom flats for sale under 125K where I live, which is half an hour by train to Londonistan.
Many of these are not in high rise, they're quite spacious quarter houses with an upstairs bedroom and bathroom and a downstairs open plan kitchen/living area. They are also in quite nice areas and start from a guide price of 90,000.
My ex had one. It was prefectly OK to get on the ladder. Anyone who expects more, needs to adjust their senses of entitlement.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Do they "own" it? I thought it was a council flat. Hence why you, as a worker, have to contribute a token amount to the rent.


M.C wrote:
People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*.

*their parent(s) own their house on ordinary salaries, yet they can't even afford to rent a poxy 1 bed flat.

Highlighted the important bit for you. I know it's an alien concept on this forum that someone might not be talking about themselves.

mpd72 wrote:
25K a year? A couple will earn 32,500 on minimum wage if both working full time.
If you're referring to single occupants, there are plenty of 1 bedroom flats for sale under 125K where I live, which is half an hour by train to Londonistan.
Many of these are not in high rise, they're quite spacious quarter houses with an upstairs bedroom and bathroom and a downstairs open plan kitchen/living area. They are also in quite nice areas and start from a guide price of 90,000.
My ex had one. It was prefectly OK to get on the ladder. Anyone who expects more, needs to adjust their senses of entitlement.

I have a 30k deposit, lets see what Mr Barclays says...

Based on the information you've provided, we won't be able to offer you a mortgage.

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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
Do they "own" it? I thought it was a council flat. Hence why you, as a worker, have to contribute a token amount to the rent.


M.C wrote:
People I know wonder why they work full time and still live at home*.

*their parent(s) own their house on ordinary salaries, yet they can't even afford to rent a poxy 1 bed flat.

Highlighted the important bit for you. I know it's an alien concept on this forum that someone might not be talking about themselves.


Nice try, but I was replying to this, not the quote you chose. I've highlighted the important bit for you.

M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

[*] Nobody over the age of 25 should refer to dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".

Yes, bnp72, but really. Really.

No just you, even he seems to have given up Wink What term would you prefer? Parent(s) house?



M.C wrote:
I have a 30k deposit, lets see what Mr Barclays says...

Based on the information you've provided, we won't be able to offer you a mortgage.

Clapping


Why? Do you have a gambling habit or bad credit? a 30% deposit should be way more than enough unless there's something you're not disclosing.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Nice try, but I was replying to this, not the quote you chose. I've highlighted the important bit for you.

Doh! It wasn't about me. It was about people I know, so you going on about my circumstances shows you aren't following the conversation (for a change).

mpd72 wrote:
Why? Do you have a gambling habit or bad credit? a 30% deposit should be way more than enough unless there's something you're not disclosing.

Nope. Typed in my deposit, salary, and travel costs (remember I'll be a commuter with your plan) and computer said no.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Doh! It wasn't about me. It was about people I know, so you going on about my circumstances shows you aren't following the conversation (for a change).


I saw it as Borg referring to you, you replied. I doubt you didn't spot that.

M.C wrote:
Nope. Typed in my deposit, salary, and travel costs (remember I'll be a commuter with your plan) and computer said no.


For how much mortgage? 60K on a 90K property with 30K deposit? I don't believe you. 60K over 25 years is easily affordable on minimum wage.
You're just playing the hard done by generation victim, priced out of housing to excuse your, as Borg put it, "dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".
You could do it if you actually tried properly, rather than looking for an excuse to stay in your current cushy little number.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
I saw it as Borg referring to you, you replied. I doubt you didn't spot that.

Regarding the term he prefers.

mpd72 wrote:
For how much mortgage? 60K on a 90K property with 30K deposit? I don't believe you. 60K over 25 years is easily affordable on minimum wage.
You're just playing the hard done by generation victim, priced out of housing to excuse your, as Borg put it, "dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".
You could do it if you actually tried properly, rather than looking for an excuse to stay in your current cushy little number.

Yeah this shows your level of understanding, no one I know finds it cushy, most are going mad wanting their own space... and that's the people in 'normal' family homes (ie not council scrounging scum).

Everytime you bring up the move to Kent argument you gloss over the commuting costs. I guess you could tell them you plan to jog to work, see if they believe you.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Yeah this shows your level of understanding, no one I know finds it cushy, most are going mad wanting their own space... and that's the people in 'normal' family homes (ie not council scrounging scum).



Yup, and if they have toxic parents it can be down right debilitating.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 19:49 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

25K a year? A couple will earn 32,500 on minimum wage if both working full time.
If you're referring to single occupants, there are plenty of 1 bedroom flats for sale under 125K where I live, which is half an hour by train to Londonistan.
Many of these are not in high rise, they're quite spacious quarter houses with an upstairs bedroom and bathroom and a downstairs open plan kitchen/living area. They are also in quite nice areas and start from a guide price of 90,000.
My ex had one. It was prefectly OK to get on the ladder. Anyone who expects more, needs to adjust their senses of entitlement.


Hmm. Whilst I agree it can still be done, I think you do rather underestimate how difficult it is for the young. Some facts:

1.) Average stating salary for a student is about 19-22k/pa.
2.) On my course, which is considered good, its about 30K.
3.) A first year junior doctor earns 22,636, although this rises to 30k in 4 years.
4.) If you've no degree, you're probably talking 16-18k.
5.) Most people at that stage are likely to be buying alone (only one of my friends has a long term girlfriend that is serious enough to consider buying a house together, that shit is more of a long term commitment than marriage).
6.) A 5x salary mortgage is about the best you'll ever get in terms of borrowing and it is by no means a guaranteed that the bank'll play ball on such a level of debt.

And for context, my mothers first mortgage for a 3 bed semi detached house with a garage was 2.5x salary in about 1985. She bought it on her own.

Today, houses of a similar type (3 bed, semi detached, sometimes with a garage) in the same post code are on the market for 'offers in excess of 180K'. To afford the same house today on a 2.5x salary mortgage, a young professional straight out of uni would need to be pulling in 72,000pa.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


For how much mortgage? 60K on a 90K property with 30K deposit? I don't believe you. 60K over 25 years is easily affordable on minimum wage.
You're just playing the hard done by generation victim, priced out of housing to excuse your, as Borg put it, "dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".
You could do it if you actually tried properly, rather than looking for an excuse to stay in your current cushy little number.


Not much chance of a 90k property in an area with jobs and where you won't get stabbed on a daily basis. In fact even without jobs and with getting stabbed on a daily basis you would struggle to find one that cheap! 190k is more like it, and that's still very bottom end of the market for the places where the work is.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 21:41 - 27 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
mpd72 wrote:


For how much mortgage? 60K on a 90K property with 30K deposit? I don't believe you. 60K over 25 years is easily affordable on minimum wage.
You're just playing the hard done by generation victim, priced out of housing to excuse your, as Borg put it, "dangling off their mum's teat as being "at home".
You could do it if you actually tried properly, rather than looking for an excuse to stay in your current cushy little number.


Not much chance of a 90k property in an area with jobs and where you won't get stabbed on a daily basis. In fact even without jobs and with getting stabbed on a daily basis you would struggle to find one that cheap! 190k is more like it, and that's still very bottom end of the market for the places where the work is.


1 bed flats start at 90k and are in decent areas.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
1 bed flats start at 90k and are in decent areas.

Got any links (genuinely interested)? I see lots of offers over, WTF is this Scotland Confused Seem to start about 100k to live above a shop but I don't know where you specifically have in mind.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Everytime you bring up the move to Kent argument you gloss over the commuting costs. I guess you could tell them you plan to jog to work, see if they believe you.


You're playing the victim "my generation can't get on the housing ladder".
This is bollocks. I'm showing you why, you have enough deposit to put down 33% on a 1 bedroom flat, which start from 90K for a quarter house where I live, half an hour by train from your beloved Londonistan.

120 a week train fare to London is affordable for many basic workers. If you think the thousands of commuters going to London are all city traders, you're wrong. I know plenty who work in retail as shop assistants in London and commute.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
1 bed flats start at 90k and are in decent areas.

Got any links (genuinely interested)? I see lots of offers over, WTF is this Scotland Confused Seem to start about 100k to live above a shop but I don't know where you specifically have in mind.


90K and Willesborough is a nice area. Bedsit though, didn't spot that but it's still a foot on the housing ladder.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-51060894.html

Plenty more on that site for under 110K. This one is a decent sized modern 1 bedroom flat for 103K.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-70361144.html
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Everytime you bring up the move to Kent argument you gloss over the commuting costs.

There are jobs available outside the M25.

The only solution to London is for several million Londoners to leave.

Always makes me chuckle, Londoners priding themselves on being progressive and diverse (your mayor's dad drove a bus, you know), but the thought of leaving for the provinces is anathema.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 11:51 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


This is bollocks. I'm showing you why, you have enough deposit to put down 33% on a 1 bedroom flat, which start from 90K for a quarter house where I live, half an hour by train from your beloved Londonistan.

120 a week train fare to London is affordable for many basic workers. If you think the thousands of commuters going to London are all city traders, you're wrong. I know plenty who work in retail as shop assistants in London and commute.


120 a week *48* a 25 year mortgage equals 144k.

So really, what your saying is he can afford to buy a bed sit for effectively 234k and have to travel an hour to work everyday?

Not gonna lie, think I'd live with mummy if that was the situation...

Of course, as Rog says, fuck London with a rusty pole. Other areas are more realistic.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm told you can still buy a house for 30,000 in Lincolnshire. Don't know if this is true and I dread to think what a 30k house looks like, but if I was young and lived in London (god forbid!), I would be looking to obtain 'remote' skills (CAD tech, Microsoft engineer etc...) and move to somewhere where I could both work and afford to live.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:

120 a week *48* a 25 year mortgage equals 144k.

So really, what your saying is he can afford to buy a bed sit for effectively 234k and have to travel an hour to work everyday?

Not gonna lie, think I'd live with mummy if that was the situation...

Of course, as Rog says, fuck London with a rusty pole. Other areas are more realistic.


So many wrong assumptions there.

Is commuting to work free and timeless in London then?
An Oyster card can cost up to 60 a week and travel across London can take over half an hour each way, even by Tube.
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 12:49 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
I'm told you can still buy a house for 30,000 in Lincolnshire. Don't know if this is true and I dread to think what a 30k house looks like, but if I was young and lived in London (god forbid!), I would be looking to obtain 'remote' skills (CAD tech, Microsoft engineer etc...) and move to somewhere where I could both work and afford to live.


I reckon that'd be a bit of a hovel but 90k would buy you a 2 bed terraced bungalow with garden in my village (North Lincolnshire).

I really don't understand why people are so keen to live and work in London where you pay so much for so little. What's the big attraction?
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sister-in-law did exactly that. She lives in Scotter now and hasn't looked back...
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:

I really don't understand why people are so keen to live and work in London where you pay so much for so little. What's the big attraction?


Never too far from a Mosque?
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
panrider_uk wrote:

I really don't understand why people are so keen to live and work in London where you pay so much for so little. What's the big attraction?


Never too far from a Mosque?


Plenty of places cheaper than London for Muslims.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:


Plenty of places cheaper than London for Muslims.


Maybe, but if the state is paying your rent, it doesn't really matter.

Most people can't afford to live in Kensington, but Grenfell had a very high percentage of state funded residents. Private rent was 1400 a month in there.
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:15 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Itchy wrote:

There is already variable stamp duty depending on how much property equity you already own.


I thought there'd be something. Doesn't seem to act as much of a disincentive though.


It is - because there are other factors; mortgage interest offset against tax being the key one. And it's tightening up next year again, too. And again year after.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/new-buy-to-let-tax-works-andhow-beat/

Ironically that's had a bit of an unwanted knock-on in high priced areas where 'accidental landlords' have sold up and foreign investment companies have bought up instead.
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:

I really don't understand why people are so keen to live and work in London where you pay so much for so little. What's the big attraction?


24 hour transportation, innumerable attractions, bars, restaurants and events of all types; a night out on your doorstep. Some people want that. To others it's no big deal.

Working in London - ~20-30% higher salary available for middle ground workers and ~50% for higher up types. I got paid very well to take a 'local' job ~40 miles in the opposite direction from London because they needed me; I got paid 25% more than that to go back into London, and my commute door to door in terms of length of time was the same, and probably cheaper on the train than it was to drive by the time all costs are factored in.

Living in London - pay so much for so little may well be true, but the earnings on the housing market upturn for a huge number of people have been immense. My house has probably near doubled in value over the last 10 years and that's not even in London. In London it's even more pronounced. So in essence, if you got in early and could afford it, your 400k flat is now worth nearer a million quid - and that's a lot of dough to cash out and buy yourself a place in the country with.

I love working in London; I'd hate to live in it, but I can see why people do it.
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

But houses going up in value means nothing while you still live in it and if you move then that house has probably also doubled in price so you really only benefit when you downsize or move away.

I can see some attraction, for the convenience, if you go out eating/clubbing etc every night but generally most areas have no shortage of good food and entertainment.

Busy, dirty, noisy, expensive.

Seems a high price to pay to me but each to their own Smile
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