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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 08:22 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giant Scalextric anyone? Solves one problem anyway. Creates more.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-4529962/Qualcomm-s-road-charges-electric-cars-move.html
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 08:27 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/

How exciting that money will be found to remove bumps and smooth traffic flow - the exact opposite of what money has been found for over the past 20 years where policy has been to deliberately cause congestion.


Another snipet from that article

Quote:
The Government will also commit to banning the sale of all new diesel and petrol cars by 2040 in a bid to encourage people to switch to electric and hybrid vehicles.


Aren't Hybrid vehicles still powered by petrol/diesel, or an i missing something, so which is it, a ban on all petrol/diesel vehicles, or a push to get people into hybrids

If the latter then it's a very different story all together, and potentially much more achievable
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doggone
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PostPosted: 08:28 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


I wonder how it behaves in bad weather - flood/snow/ice/salt spray.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:31 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm, I spotted the "hybrid" option too. Same as Volvo's announcement that all new designs post 2019 won't be solely ICE driven. London taxis too. Hybrids, for some vague definition, seem like the get-out clause to pacify the ecomentals.

What grinds my electrodes is that the problem is on a very few specific NOx deathroads. For example, Central Station in Glasgow spewing forth every single Train Tosser from south of the city to the idling diesel buses and taxis stopped right next to the pollution monitoring box in Hope Street.

Punishing every single road user, urban, suburban and rural, for the fact that city planners have managed to create that density of traffic in a few areas is perverse and pointless.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 08:40 - 27 Jul 2017; edited 1 time in total
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 08:39 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Mmm, I spotted the "hybrid" option too. Same as Volvo's announcement that all new designs post 2019 won't be solely ICE driven. London taxis too. Hybrids, for some vague definition, seem like the get-out clause to pacify the ecomentals.


Indeed, and i read an interesting article a few weeks ago when that was announced, something along the lines of what is classed as a hybrid, in so much that a petrol/diesel car with Stop/Start technology can actually be classed as a hybrid (albeit a low level hybrid)
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 09:34 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
doggone wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/

How exciting that money will be found to remove bumps and smooth traffic flow - the exact opposite of what money has been found for over the past 20 years where policy has been to deliberately cause congestion.


Another snipet from that article

Quote:
The Government will also commit to banning the sale of all new diesel and petrol cars by 2040 in a bid to encourage people to switch to electric and hybrid vehicles.


Aren't Hybrid vehicles still powered by petrol/diesel, or an i missing something, so which is it, a ban on all petrol/diesel vehicles, or a push to get people into hybrids

If the latter then it's a very different story all together, and potentially much more achievable


Plugin hybrids I believe, most PHEV owners I know here at work barely use the fuel side for commuting, as their commute is mostly within the battery range of their car. They usually buy a tank of fuel a month.
It's all very dependant on your usage.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 09:54 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Codezombie wrote:

Plugin hybrids I believe, most PHEV owners I know here at work barely use the fuel side for commuting, as their commute is mostly within the battery range of their car. They usually buy a tank of fuel a month.
It's all very dependant on your usage.


But still, a very different story if it is only a ban no sole petrol/diesel vehicles, or a push for more hybrids
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
Codezombie wrote:

Plugin hybrids I believe, most PHEV owners I know here at work barely use the fuel side for commuting, as their commute is mostly within the battery range of their car. They usually buy a tank of fuel a month.
It's all very dependant on your usage.


But still, a very different story if it is only a ban no sole petrol/diesel vehicles, or a push for more hybrids


Its defo a push for more hybrids, or thats how it will pan out.
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Fuel cells maybe? So rather than charging batteries you merely top up the chemicals that cause the reaction instead of the battery unit.

Years ago I did some experiments with magnesium sea water batteries. Pretty weak, but all you had to do was carry some magnesium plates and some salt.


TLDR most of the rest but this 100%.

If you could have a tank to store the 'charged' electrolyte and then pass it over the power generating bit (ie 'plates'), then when you refuel you return the used (discharged) electrolyte whilst filling with fresh?

You could 'recharge' almost as quick as you would at the pumps retaining all the advantages of liquid based fuel just recycling the electrolyte!

The advantage is as tech improves they can uprate the electrolyte as joe bloggs is already accustomed to dealing with multiple fuel choices...
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Codezombie wrote:
Its defo a push for more hybrids, or thats how it will pan out.


It may well be the case, but the headlining stories are a ban on all new petrol/diesel cars, hybrids still use petrol and diesel, it can't be both
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because science.

http://i.imgur.com/roj0qLI.jpg
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Ste
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PostPosted: 10:54 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Because science.

http://i.imgur.com/lTgRBxU.jpg
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
Codezombie wrote:
Its defo a push for more hybrids, or thats how it will pan out.


It may well be the case, but the headlining stories are a ban on all new petrol/diesel cars, hybrids still use petrol and diesel, it can't be both


Yeah could be that the ban includes hybrids... hmm was'nt expecting that.

Edit: Ah plug in hybrids won't be banned
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/non-electric-cars-banned-2040/
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

This level of detail isn't in the published reports, so it seems that they're making this up as they go along. I'd suspect that they're pre-empting some EU or Californian (i.e. Septic-wide) announcement so that it doesn't look like they're tagging along with the inevritabur.

Car sales are dropping a bit at the moment, so I'd expect to see another ill-thought out scrappage scheme soon as well.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Fuel cells maybe? So rather than charging batteries you merely top up the chemicals that cause the reaction instead of the battery unit.


Would there be any fossil fuels consumed in the production and distribution of these chemicals? How much energy would it consume to produce or mine and process these chemicals?

This is the issue. Half the planets eco warriors think electricity is as freely available as cash for a Labour spending "promise". Like the idea that scrapping millions of perfectly good cars to replace them with new ones which cost a huge carbon footprint to build, is somehow good for the environment.

As with most of these hair-brained schemes, there's usually a financial motive behind it.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Codezombie wrote:

Yeah could be that the ban includes hybrids... hmm was'nt expecting that.

Edit: Ah plug in hybrids won't be banned
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/non-electric-cars-banned-2040/


Ahh, now that is a completely different prospect as was being banded about in the news yesterday, and somewhat more achievable too
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatefreak wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Fuel cells maybe? So rather than charging batteries you merely top up the chemicals that cause the reaction instead of the battery unit.

Years ago I did some experiments with magnesium sea water batteries. Pretty weak, but all you had to do was carry some magnesium plates and some salt.

TLDR most of the rest but this 100%.

If you could have a tank to store the 'charged' electrolyte and then pass it over the power generating bit (ie 'plates'), then when you refuel you return the used (discharged) electrolyte whilst filling with fresh?

Ah yes, a web favourite; the water-powered car. What they don't tell you is the magnesium needs replacing.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah well until they can get the energy density and cost in the batteries this is a non-starter. Just imagine the cost of an electric HGV!
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 13:19 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah agree. Technology needs to catch up in terms of power density. Also someone needs to build lots of charging points. Both of these need government investment but times are hard don't you know.
What about a Nuclear powered car? Would never ever need powering up! Might be a few health issues though..
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:33 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that come 2039 the government will do something politicians really hate doing, accept that reality simply will not conform to their political ideals. You can wave all the white papers you like at the laws of physics, they won't change.
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Loui5D
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PostPosted: 13:48 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2017/july/petrol-engines-banned-from-2040?cid=sm_000002
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:49 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loui5D wrote:

Broken linky Confused
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
Technology needs to catch up in terms of power density.

"C-, must try harder."

BCF-ified Bennett's link. The usual high-content, low-clickbait stuff. Thumbs Up
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 13:58 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concept I was looking for was a flow battery.

Admittedly, a little further to go when we're looking at energy density etc however being able to pump in/out depleted/fresh power would bring it to the forefront usability wise.

Hydrogen cell would be great (work alongside internal combustion hydrogen?) as both applications would require a sensible solution to on board storage....
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohh. Masters degree in Physics and Engineering but rated C- from the borg.
I'll go sit in the corner
Embarassed
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