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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
BCF-ified Bennett's link. The usual high-content, low-clickbait stuff. Thumbs Up

http://streaming1.danviet.vn/upload/1-2016/images/2016-02-28/1456606177-2.jpg
Eh?

I'll wait until everything's electric and motorists have developed super psychic observational skillz. ATM an electric motorbike seems like suicide.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
ohh. Masters degree in Physics and Engineering but rated C- from the borg.

The C- was issued to "Technology". If you see Technology around, tell it that I'm not angry with it, I'm just disappointed.

It's almost as though Technology doesn't realise how important it is that physics should work in a way that assuages our consciences. Doesn't Technology even care about our feelings?
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 16:10 - 27 Jul 2017; edited 1 time in total
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno if this counts as clarification but all hybrids will apparently be ok: http://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/26/uk-hybrid-internal-combustion-engine-ban/

Don't want a Prius Crying or Very sad
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

First it was no petrol/diesel, then it was plug-in hybrids only, now it's all hybrids.

Looks like there's no plan other than to mollify the ecomentals and scupper their tedious legal whinging.
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

which, next to dropping the whole idea is a pretty good plan.
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Tracer1234
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solution is so simple.

https://s20.postimg.org/xne6ccbil/Screenshot_2017-07-27_at_17.24.03.png
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techathy
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PostPosted: 21:37 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
techathy wrote:
Zero FXS

£12,500 and upwards.

InB4 "yahbut, subsidies", we all end up paying for those, and they hide the true cost.

Yamaha have gone verrrry quiet about their long promised electrobikes.

At the moment, and for all the future that I can foresee, electric vehicles are going to remain out of the reach of the Just About Managing.

My point was in terms of riding a low power electric bike is really good for local town work with short stints of NSL work. My 40~45 mile range is about 30 miles of NSL work with 10~15 miles of under 40mph speed limit riding.

In term of pricing I totally agree. Even with the subsidy it's getting on for twice the price of the petrol alternative. However, as the more people who buy electric vehicles the cheaper they will get, I considered the price to be one worth paying given my situation.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 27 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

techathy wrote:
However, as the more people who buy electric vehicles the cheaper they will get

Oft asserted, but 500kg of lithium is always going to cost far more than 150kg of iron.

What does demand for a limited resource do to cost?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 01:35 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:



This is the issue. Half the planets eco warriors think electricity is as freely available


Classic argument against electrification.

Power doesn't have to come from fossil fuels.

Quote:
Like the idea that scrapping millions of perfectly good cars to replace them with new ones which cost a huge carbon footprint to build, is somehow good for the environment.

As with most of these hair-brained schemes, there's usually a financial motive behind it.


Quite likely the car scrapping idea was also about getting people to spend money and keep that part of the economy buoyant.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 06:52 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Quote:
Like the idea that scrapping millions of perfectly good cars to replace them with new ones which cost a huge carbon footprint to build, is somehow good for the environment.

As with most of these hair-brained schemes, there's usually a financial motive behind it.


Quite likely the car scrapping idea was also about getting people to spend money and keep that part of the economy buoyant.


Yeah, and spend money they don't have on PCP deals
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the spaceship paradox, or however you term it.

You want to go to mars, so you build a space ship. It launches.

After some time, it is overtaken by Spaceship Number Two, which was built after Number One, and is faster and just better. They used what they learnt.

Spaceship number two is promptly overtaken by number three, which used all the advancements from building number two, and is faster and better.

Ad nauseum.

Point is, we have to start somewhere.

Limiting babies and consumers would be a much larger impact for the environment, but ho-hum.

I think it will likely become Hybrids only, as they convert excess flywheel energy to battery power. I don't see the problem, to be honest.

E-bikes would be fine if licensed and treated as ROAD vehicles. I developed a hatred of them in China because they whipped round pedestrians on them, silently, and were usually driven by the very old or very young... As said above, suicide machines.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:50 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

On whether this will mollify the ecomentals and associated revolting lefties:

Frenchies announce banning new petrodiesels from 2040:

Sadiq Khan wrote:
I welcome the strong leadership the French government has shown by making the decision to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2040. This radical step shames the timid and insufficient response of our own government to the health threat posed by poor air quality.


Ecomental lawyers ClientEarth wrote:
This is a huge statement of intent from the French government and an example of how we’re likely to see exponential change in the coming years as governments grapple with the necessary changes we have to make for air quality and our climate… These moves should be heeded by other governments and industry, who need to act to protect us from air pollution in our towns and cities and help mitigate climate change.



UK announce banning new petrodiesels from 2040:

Sadiq Khan wrote:
A half-hearted commitment from Government simply isn’t good enough… The commitment to phase out sales of new diesel cars is welcome, but Londoners suffering right now simply can’t afford to wait until 2040.


Ecomental lawyers ClientEarth wrote:
The 2040 diesel and petrol ban, while important is a diversionary tactic and doesn’t deal with the public health emergency caused by illegally polluted air, now.

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 10:56 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easy to announce things for 23 years in the future primarily because it won't be your (current government's) problem in 2040 any more.

It's very much like energy policy or Airport expansion put a date some time far in the future so it's no longer your problem and becomes somebody else's.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:04 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You OK, bruv? You didn't tell us how China-China-China would have handled it.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option would be embedding charging lines of some form into the roadway with cars being charged by the road on longer trips. Its still an issue for countryside usage though as the battery may not have enough range and the road may not have sufficient traffic for road electrification to be economical. Also, big capital costs. Fine for Londoners (yeah, them again), not so great for Somerset or the Highlands.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Another option would be embedding charging lines of some form into the roadway with cars being charged by the road on longer trips. Its still an issue for countryside usage though as the battery may not have enough range and the road may not have sufficient traffic for road electrification to be economical. Also, big capital costs. Fine for Londoners (yeah, them again), not so great for Somerset or the Highlands.

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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
It's easy to announce things for 23 years in the future primarily because it won't be your (current government's) problem in 2040 any more.

It's very much like energy policy or Airport expansion put a date some time far in the future so it's no longer your problem and becomes somebody else's.


Not sure this is our government itself being crafty, as 2040 is the date picked by a few other EU countries as well, while China and India are pushing for a ban by 2030, so I suspect this is date is part a deal that's been done between a fair few nations. For example Norway, not unsurprisingly, is implementing a 2025 ban, but they are near 40% in new sales of cars being electric.
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
You OK, bruv? You didn't tell us how China-China-China would have handled it.


Ban in place by 2030 I believe.
But electric vehicles are pretty popular over there already, and they have a 7m vehicle EV target for 2025.
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Last edited by Codezombie on 11:26 - 28 Jul 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Another option would be embedding charging lines of some form into the roadway with cars being charged by the road on longer trips. Its still an issue for countryside usage though as the battery may not have enough range and the road may not have sufficient traffic for road electrification to be economical. Also, big capital costs. Fine for Londoners (yeah, them again), not so great for Somerset or the Highlands.


?

Surely laying a few electric cables leading to strategic roadside locations is piss-easy. Happens all the time for new buildings. Must be a lot easier when the only thing you need to put up is a big socket for plugging your car into.

Agreed it could take longer to get them into the sticks, but then there aren't many petrol stations in the sticks either so no change there.
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Another option would be embedding charging lines of some form into the roadway with cars being charged by the road on longer trips. Its still an issue for countryside usage though as the battery may not have enough range and the road may not have sufficient traffic for road electrification to be economical. Also, big capital costs. Fine for Londoners (yeah, them again), not so great for Somerset or the Highlands.


?

Surely laying a few electric cables leading to strategic roadside locations is piss-easy. Happens all the time for new buildings. Must be a lot easier when the only thing you need to put up is a big socket for plugging your car into.

Agreed it could take longer to get them into the sticks, but then there aren't many petrol stations in the sticks either so no change there.


Worth having too, having a charging point on a house is already a minor selling point, while some Estate Agents speculate that as more cars become EVs and are quieter, roadside properties may go up in price due to reduced noise.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamelessly stolen from Vice News:

"How do we power all these new cars though? Right now, peak demand for electricity in the UK is 60 gigawatts. The National Grid reckon electric cars could cause peak demand to rise by as much as 8GW by 2030, and 18GW once all cars are electric. Which is quite a lot. By way of comparison, the new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point C will produce a maximum of just over 3GW, and cost about £20 billion to build. We'd need six more of them to cope."
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 11:33 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:

E-bikes would be fine if licensed and treated as ROAD vehicles. I developed a hatred of them in China because they whipped round pedestrians on them, silently, and were usually driven by the very old or very young... As said above, suicide machines.


Agreed, which is why over here the peak power of the electric motor is used to determine what Licence you need. Which is why something like the Zero-SR or the Energia Ego need a full licence, they are both quick bikes that can get you into trouble sharpish. (I watched enough new riders take an SR out, only to dump it in a corner as they were not ready for the sharpish power delivery)
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Codezombie
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PostPosted: 11:35 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Shamelessly stolen from Vice News:

"How do we power all these new cars though? Right now, peak demand for electricity in the UK is 60 gigawatts. The National Grid reckon electric cars could cause peak demand to rise by as much as 8GW by 2030, and 18GW once all cars are electric. Which is quite a lot. By way of comparison, the new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point C will produce a maximum of just over 3GW, and cost about £20 billion to build. We'd need six more of them to cope."


You need to knock a dozen or so GW off that figure to account for the reduction in Oil Refining though. Anecdotally by the people that run the refineries, a single refinery uses enough power to run two mid sized cities.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Another option would be embedding charging lines of some form into the roadway with cars being charged by the road on longer trips. Its still an issue for countryside usage though as the battery may not have enough range and the road may not have sufficient traffic for road electrification to be economical. Also, big capital costs. Fine for Londoners (yeah, them again), not so great for Somerset or the Highlands.


?

Surely laying a few electric cables leading to strategic roadside locations is piss-easy. Happens all the time for new buildings. Must be a lot easier when the only thing you need to put up is a big socket for plugging your car into.

Agreed it could take longer to get them into the sticks, but then there aren't many petrol stations in the sticks either so no change there.


You need to either embed inductors in the road surface or have a charging rail. Charging points already exist but you cannot drive while using one.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 13:00 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Codezombie wrote:
Anecdotally by the people that run the refineries, a single refinery uses enough power to run two mid sized cities.

Source [1]?
It sounds like high estimate x1000, must be Greenpeace or some such.
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