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doggone
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 28 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:



As to installing a charge point down every street. who is going to stump up the cash..


It's worse than that, most lines to more remote communities would need upgrading to cope with these big chargers perhaps 2 or more per house.
For example the supply here is rated at 15Kva which might cope except there's three houses on the same transformer.
Basically most of the electricity infrastructure will need upgrading.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 00:00 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me (and I've been pondering this for some time) why you can't use the rotary motion of, say, a wheel(s) or electric motor, to drive a generator, which would charge the battery that powers the motor.

I'm not talking about repurposing wasted energy, as in KERS or similar, but straightforward motion take off, as in an alternator.

Am I missing something fundamental?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 00:08 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me (and I've been pondering this for some time) why you can't use the rotary motion of, say, a wheel(s) or electric motor, to drive a generator, which would charge the battery that powers the motor.

I'm not talking about repurposing wasted energy, as in KERS or similar, but straightforward motion take off, as in an alternator.

Am I missing something fundamental?


Are you having a blond moment or engaging in a very subtle troll Mr. Shaft?
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Shaft wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me (and I've been pondering this for some time) why you can't use the rotary motion of, say, a wheel(s) or electric motor, to drive a generator, which would charge the battery that powers the motor.

I'm not talking about repurposing wasted energy, as in KERS or similar, but straightforward motion take off, as in an alternator.

Am I missing something fundamental?


Are you having a blond moment or engaging in a very subtle troll Mr. Shaft?


Neither.

I've been talking about this with my work colleagues (between us we have 100+ years of working on vehicles that generate their own electricity to top up batteries) and unless we've forgotten something major in our educations, we can't see why this doesn't work, or can't be made to.

Please enlighten me, I genuinely want to know why this isn't possible.

Edited to add, I have almost a total mental block when it comes to electricity, but TBF, so must my colleagues.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 01:34 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I am being thick, it reads like you are asking why we can't have perpetual motion.

With very very rough values -

An alternator is 50% efficient, a lead acid battery 90% efficient. and electric motor if I remember right is about 85%.

So your overall energy conversion efficiency of a motor driving an alternator to charge a battery to drive said motor is about 40%.

Therefore for every 'unit' of power from the battery you would replace it with 0.4 'units'.

Your battery would be very flat very quickly.

Add in a car, where are you going to get the energy to propel the car when the battery charging system can't even charge itself?
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 08:22 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Unless I am being thick, it reads like you are asking why we can't have perpetual motion.

With very very rough values -

An alternator is 50% efficient, a lead acid battery 90% efficient. and electric motor if I remember right is about 85%.

So your overall energy conversion efficiency of a motor driving an alternator to charge a battery to drive said motor is about 40%.

Therefore for every 'unit' of power from the battery you would replace it with 0.4 'units'.

Your battery would be very flat very quickly.

Add in a car, where are you going to get the energy to propel the car when the battery charging system can't even charge itself?


I suppose it does read like that and I'm aware of the Laws of Thermodynamics and the principles contained therein, but that just highlights why the electric vehicle is a blind alley, with the technology we have available today.

Personally, I think we are way more than 23 years away from making an all electric vehicle parc viable - it's taken that long to agree on building Hinkley Point and that is said to be capable of providing around just 6.5% of our electrical needs in the 2020s, but I bet that didn't take into account replacing 26000,000 fossil fuelled cars with battery chargers.

So how many power stations are we going to need to do that and can we build them in 23 (or even 30/40/50) years?

And that's just one of the issues...............
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Going
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:

So how many power stations are we going to need to do that and can we build them in 23 (or even 30/40/50) years?


I really don't see the problem, we've got Wind turbines, Solar Power, Hydroelectricity, Magic. What else do you need Confused

I'm waiting for the Nuclear powered cars, that will be a blast.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:32 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

iooi wrote:
As to installing a charge point down every street. who is going to stump up the cash..

Me, as usual.

On the issue of swapping batteries, tried and failed in Israel after flushing near to a birrion dorrah on it.

I'm sure lessons were learned and such, but it's a non-starter until there's one swappable battery to rule them all, which I don't see happening in the next few decades.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:46 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The nearer and nearer we get to the deadline is going to put tremendous pressure on any government.

No one is going to want to lose their old IC car for scrap value and then spend £20k on a battery car. Everyone in the petrol/oil industry will be up in arms about losing their jobs.

The government is not going to want to lose the tax.

Want to win an election?

Manifesto - We will postpone (indefinitely) the banning of IC cars. Thumbs Up
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Bozzy
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody seems to have mentioned hydrogen powered vehicles?

Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have had hydrogen powered cars available since 2016. Admittedly, they are hideously priced, but 22 years is a long time for the price of this new technology to fall.

https://www.driving.co.uk/s3/st-driving-prod/uploads/2015/10/STM.HYDROGEN-STATIONS.11.10.2015.web_.jpg

As you can see, there are plans to increase the amount of fuelling stations. I'd imagine they will increase dramatically now in the run up to 2040.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:48 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
The nearer and nearer we get to the deadline is going to put tremendous pressure on any government.


Why? No government ever stuck to anything in the past.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Why? No government ever stuck to anything in the past.


Until they absolutely have to. Then then get put over a barrel as they scrabble around to get it put into place. Nuclear power was exactly this situation.
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Commuter_Tim
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely for the same reasons of grandfather rights with licences, they can't take anyones current vehicles off the road forcibly?

Would there be anything stopping someone getting a custom made engine and parts then fitting that to a pre-registered frame? (apart from bank funds)
Surely once all the car drivers can't use petrol, the price would be stupidly cheap too? Thinking
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kradmelder wrote:
The reason for petrol and diesel being phased out is so simple it is actually funny.

By 2040 there will be so many rampaging africans in the developed world that it is simply a matter of public safety to not have tanks of flammable/combustible liquids sitting on residential streets to either be ignited, or stolen for cooking on open fires in places like Grenfell.


Anyway, doing a bit more reading into the proposal for ICE phaseout and the current estimates are an extra 10% loading on the national grid. A large amout of extra draw no doubt, but not insurmounteable.

To be honest, if they can crack energy density and battery degradation in the next 23 years then this might actually work out. The lithium issue is more difficult, but as with lead acid batteries once you've mined enough of the stuff you can effectively recycle it as an almost closed system, only adding small amounts of extra virgin material to keep up with new demand.
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Last edited by Vracktal on 22:56 - 29 Jul 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 22:54 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commuter_Tim wrote:
Surely for the same reasons of grandfather rights with licences, they can't take anyones current vehicles off the road forcibly?

Would there be anything stopping someone getting a custom made engine and parts then fitting that to a pre-registered frame? (apart from bank funds)
Surely once all the car drivers can't use petrol, the price would be stupidly cheap too? Thinking


Given that the eco/pollution thing has now gained so much traction, there's an obscene amount of money to be made out of it, I should think in 20 years time, 'they' will be able to do pretty much anything they want.

And don't think this just effects car drivers - it might not have been mentioned yet, but by 'cars' what they really mean is all IC vehicles, bikes included.
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Bricktop
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PostPosted: 23:31 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Kradmelder wrote:
The reason for petrol and diesel being phased out is so simple it is actually funny.

By 2040 there will be so many rampaging africans in the developed world that it is simply a matter of public safety to not have tanks of flammable/combustible liquids sitting on residential streets to either be ignited, or stolen for cooking on open fires in places like Grenfell.


Anyway, doing a bit more reading into the proposal for ICE phaseout and the current estimates are an extra 10% loading on the national grid. A large amout of extra draw no doubt, but not insurmounteable.

To be honest, if they can crack energy density and battery degradation in the next 23 years then this might actually work out. The lithium issue is more difficult, but as with lead acid batteries once you've mined enough of the stuff you can effectively recycle it as an almost closed system, only adding small amounts of extra virgin material to keep up with new demand.


Ah, I get it. You're an easily triggered millennial who probably uses the qualifier In the future without a trace of irony.

I'll wager a gold pig that you are one of those who laps up sensationalist technology news about stuff that may be possible 'in 50 years'.
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 01:55 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bricktop wrote:
Ah, I get it. You're an easily triggered millennial who probably uses the qualifier In the future without a trace of irony.

I'll wager a gold pig that you are one of those who laps up sensationalist technology news about stuff that may be possible 'in 50 years'.


And i'll bet you're one of those old grumpy gits who believes things were better back in your day, everything that can be invented has been invented, and that oil will last for eternity. Don't you have some looms to go break or something.
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Bricktop
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PostPosted: 08:24 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Ah, I get it. You're an easily triggered millennial who probably uses the qualifier In the future without a trace of irony.

I'll wager a gold pig that you are one of those who laps up sensationalist technology news about stuff that may be possible 'in 50 years'.


And i'll bet you're one of those old grumpy gits who believes things were better back in your day, everything that can be invented has been invented, and that oil will last for eternity. Don't you have some looms to go break or something.


Thank you for tacitly admitting I was correct.

The problem I have with inventions is that the perception of technological advancement has been skewed in the eyes of the gullible by the successes in areas of computing and telecommunications. In these areas the advancement has been magnificent.

However, in the areas of mechanical engineering things have virtually ground to a halt. I drive a fast car and bike yet these are still internal combustion vehicles running on dead dinosaur juice. The vaunted successor to the IC vehicle is the electric car. Need I remind you that the battery and the motor were invented in 1800?

Where's my fucking hover car, m8?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are legislating on the basis that lab monkeys will invent something better than lithium-ion.

However, lithium is what Tesla is currently going hog wild on, and it's not good enough. Too expensive (and it will get more so, not less, as demand outstrips supply) and only suitable for overnight charging by garage owners.

We need iron, aluminium or silicon based battery technology that can charge at 100 miles a minute.

Do we even have that in the lab yet?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

A number of big manufacturers are getting involved with Formula e now, that should help development.
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Tracer1234
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bricktop wrote:

The problem I have with inventions is that the perception of technological advancement has been skewed in the eyes of the gullible by the successes in areas of computing and telecommunications. In these areas the advancement has been magnificent.

However, in the areas of mechanical engineering things have virtually ground to a halt.


The large hadron collider for example? Wink
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Bricktop
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracer1234 wrote:
The large hadron collider for example? Wink


How many times have you used a Large Hadron Collider or, more to the point, benefited from its operation?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bricktop wrote:
Tracer1234 wrote:
The large hadron collider for example? Wink


How many times have you used a Large Hadron Collider or, more to the point, benefited from its operation?

Gaining a greater understanding of how the universe works? Thinking
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bricktop wrote:
However, in the areas of mechanical engineering things have virtually ground to a halt. I drive a fast car and bike yet these are still internal combustion vehicles running on dead dinosaur juice. The vaunted successor to the IC vehicle is the electric car. Need I remind you that the battery and the motor were invented in 1800?

Where's my fucking hover car, m8?


Yep, virtually ground to a halt.

https://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/dubai/burj_khalifa_dh060110_is4.jpghttps://spacenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/f9-crs8-landing2-879x485.jpg
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/-/media/sites/magazine/03_navigation_images/railgun_3424712.ashx?h=500&w=500&la=en&hash=E0DA5FB062E0A4B703E18D4E81F4F504E912430Dhttps://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/1279518581028399789.jpg

Ignoring of course, that while the battery and the ICE are of the same vintage, only one has had 100 odd years of development and refinement specific for motor vehicle use.
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