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Merlin_531 |
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Merlin_531 L Plate Warrior
Joined: 07 May 2020 Karma :
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Posted: 10:12 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: CG125 Clutch Judder |
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Hi guys and gals,
I've got a Cg125 (1992) that has the following problem, if revved up in first, and the cluch slowly released, the clutch judders, making the whole bike shake - but just on that initial catch of the clutch. It's not an issue in general daily riding, but is more apparent when doing slow speed riding (medium revs, on the back brake, just letting the clutch slip). The problem is more apparent when the bike is warm.
The main issue, is that I've replaced the following - Steel Plates, friction plates, springs, and the two pressure plates that push the clutch pack together. Also filed down any notches on the clutch basket. I'm out of ideas as to what the problem could be, as the clutch has essentially been replaced, but the problem persists. I was wondering if anybody else had come across anything similar? I'd apprecaite any help/ideas! |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 10:41 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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Why on earth are you attempting slip'n'drag.. higher revs, sliping clutch and holding back on the back brake, on a chuffin 125!!!!
The technique, is firstly deplorable; its a 'trick' born of DAS to get students doing slow speed manouvers more readily... it is NOT repeat NOT 'good practice'.
It's the motorcycling equivalent of p[ratting your head and rubbing your tummy, a display of fine dexterity using three controls, clutch, throttle and brake, when just one.. the throttle should be enough.. basically defeating the gearbox, and getting the bike to go slower than its geared to, in the abscence of a lower cog.
On a ONE-TWO-FIVE fer fuggs sake.... the thing probably tops out at about 10K rpm and 15mph in 1st gear.. how fugging slow do you want the dang thing to go! It is just NOT necessary or even particularly helpful!
It most surely isn't a demonstration of good machine control.... in sports where machine control is all... observed trials, moto-gym-khana, etc.. IF they need the bike to go slower than its gearedto... they fit a bigger back sprocket and gear the fuggiun thing down so they can do it clutch out under drive and in 'full control'.. clutcg on or clutch sluipping, not under drive is NOT in control, so it CANNOT be a demo of 'good' control...
Its like I said it's motorcycles patting head and rubbing tummy.... and doing bog all for you, especially on a CG125, where any judder could be coming from anywhere between the engine and brake... so just don't do it... go ride it 'properly'... THEN tell us if this 'problem' still persists. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Merlin_531 |
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Merlin_531 L Plate Warrior
Joined: 07 May 2020 Karma :
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Posted: 10:54 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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Teflon-Mike wrote: | Why on earth are you attempting slip'n'drag.. higher revs, sliping clutch and holding back on the back brake, on a chuffin 125!!!!
The technique, is firstly deplorable; its a 'trick' born of DAS to get students doing slow speed manouvers more readily... it is NOT repeat NOT 'good practice'.
It's the motorcycling equivalent of p[ratting your head and rubbing your tummy, a display of fine dexterity using three controls, clutch, throttle and brake, when just one.. the throttle should be enough.. basically defeating the gearbox, and getting the bike to go slower than its geared to, in the abscence of a lower cog.
On a ONE-TWO-FIVE fer fuggs sake.... the thing probably tops out at about 10K rpm and 15mph in 1st gear.. how fugging slow do you want the dang thing to go! It is just NOT necessary or even particularly helpful!
It most surely isn't a demonstration of good machine control.... in sports where machine control is all... observed trials, moto-gym-khana, etc.. IF they need the bike to go slower than its gearedto... they fit a bigger back sprocket and gear the fuggiun thing down so they can do it clutch out under drive and in 'full control'.. clutcg on or clutch sluipping, not under drive is NOT in control, so it CANNOT be a demo of 'good' control...
Its like I said it's motorcycles patting head and rubbing tummy.... and doing bog all for you, especially on a CG125, where any judder could be coming from anywhere between the engine and brake... so just don't do it... go ride it 'properly'... THEN tell us if this 'problem' still persists. |
Hi Mike,
Thanks a lot for your strong opinion on the matter. Far be it from me to start a slow riding debate, it's just that those are the conditions in which the problem is most notable. It goes without saying that such an issue would not come to light if one were to dump the clutch at every opportunity, not that I'm suggesting you do that. But when the clutch is slowly let out, with throttle, think a learner doing a hill start, that this judder is most noticeble. As the bike is a 125 which I've restored, and will probably sell onto a learner, from my point of view, it is important that issues like this are resolved.
All the best. |
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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Merlin_531 |
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Merlin_531 L Plate Warrior
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The Shaggy D.A. |
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The Shaggy D.A. Super Spammer
Joined: 12 Sep 2008 Karma :
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Posted: 12:01 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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If it's more noticeable when warm, could be the oil. Changed it recently? ____________________ Chances are quite high you are not in my Monkeysphere, and I don't care about you. Don't take it personally.
Currently : Royal Enfield 350 Meteor
Previously : CB100N > CB250RS > XJ900F > GT550 > GPZ750R/1000RX > AJS M16 > R100RT > Bullet 500 > CB500 > LS650P > Bullet Electra X & YBR125 > Bullet 350 "Superstar" & YBR125 Custom > Royal Enfield Classic 500 Despatch Limited Edition (28 of 200) & CB Two-Fifty Nighthawk > ER5 |
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blurredman |
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blurredman World Chat Champion
Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:22 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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If you're using the back brake whilst slipping the clutch, could the shoes be worn, or possibly the wheel oval?
Does the bike shudder when you don't use the brakes? ____________________ CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S.
Current: 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17k. , 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9k, 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (295cc) - 38k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 49k |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:51 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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Oh-Kay... its an almost thirty year old learner bike, that has likely sufferered over two decades of the idea 'low-maintenance' means 'no-maintenence', that you have restored... and are assessing by criteria that yolu believe it 'should' do drag'n'slip, liuke a nbig bike... well.. lets be blunt... it aint no big-bike, and neither you nor any learner you sell it on to should be doing drag'n'slip[ on it either.... ie this is NOT a problem, with the bike, thatr it does something 'strange'; when the ridr does something 'strange' with it, theat it was never designed to do, that it domnt need to be able to do, and that is not really helpful to any-one.
Sush drive rubbers have been mentioned... on the CG they aught to be simple metalastic-bushed pressed into the back wheel hub, four pins bolted to the sprocket sit in, the sprocket held on with a large C-Clip..... rather notoriouse, folk undo the peg drive nuts to change the sprocket, loose the C-~Clip and mumble about the sprocket wobbling...
IF riding the dang thing 'clean' not trying to drag'n'slip like it was a big-bike... the problem persists.. THAT is where I would look first... at the state of the Chain and speockets, sprocket retension by way of the drive pes and C-Clip, alignment of rear wheel and adjusters that are so oft chewed to bludgeyry, wtc et etc...
B-U-T, any 'judder' could be in any [part of the drive line from the motor to the back wheel, and simply here and now you are looking presuming a fault that simply ISN'T with the mechanics... but on the RIDING... trying toii Drag'n'Slip, which is NOT a good practice on ANY size bike, but may be more apropriate on a big-bike, for Mod1 cone excersises, and little more.
REALLY this is NOT good practice and far FAR from a displaty of 'fine conmtrol' its actually an abdication of control and admission you dont have much, but hey! You can pat your head and rub your tummy...
As said... report back what its like when toy 'just' ride the dang thing properly. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:55 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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Oh-Kay... its an almost thirty year old learner bike, that has likely sufferered over two decades of the idea 'low-maintenance' means 'no-maintenence', that you have restored... and are assessing by criteria that yolu believe it 'should' do drag'n'slip, liuke a nbig bike... well.. lets be blunt... it aint no big-bike, and neither you nor any learner you sell it on to should be doing drag'n'slip[ on it either.... ie this is NOT a problem, with the bike, thatr it does something 'strange'; when the ridr does something 'strange' with it, theat it was never designed to do, that it domnt need to be able to do, and that is not really helpful to any-one.
Sush drive rubbers have been mentioned... on the CG they aught to be simple metalastic-bushed pressed into the back wheel hub, four pins bolted to the sprocket sit in, the sprocket held on with a large C-Clip..... rather notoriouse, folk undo the peg drive nuts to change the sprocket, loose the C-~Clip and mumble about the sprocket wobbling...
IF riding the dang thing 'clean' not trying to drag'n'slip like it was a big-bike... the problem persists.. THAT is where I would look first... at the state of the Chain and speockets, sprocket retension by way of the drive pes and C-Clip, alignment of rear wheel and adjusters that are so oft chewed to bludgeyry, wtc et etc...
B-U-T, any 'judder' could be in any [part of the drive line from the motor to the back wheel, and simply here and now you are looking presuming a fault that simply ISN'T with the mechanics... but on the RIDING... trying toii Drag'n'Slip, which is NOT a good practice on ANY size bike, but may be more apropriate on a big-bike, for Mod1 cone excersises, and little more.
REALLY this is NOT good practice and far FAR from a displaty of 'fine conmtrol' its actually an abdication of control and admission you dont have much, but hey! You can pat your head and rub your tummy...
As said... report back what its like when toy 'just' ride the dang thing properly. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 17:34 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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A CG125 is a LEARNER bike. So it's FOR practicing for your test. Slow riding in first while slipping the clutch is part of the test.
It shouldn't be juddering.
First thing I'd check is the clutch push rod. Get it out, make sure it isn't rusty and roll it on a sheet of glass to make sure it's straight. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Merlin_531 |
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Merlin_531 L Plate Warrior
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Merlin_531 |
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Merlin_531 L Plate Warrior
Joined: 07 May 2020 Karma :
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Posted: 19:29 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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Teflon-Mike wrote: | Oh-Kay... its an almost thirty year old learner bike, that has likely sufferered over two decades of the idea 'low-maintenance' means 'no-maintenence', that you have restored... and are assessing by criteria that yolu believe it 'should' do drag'n'slip, liuke a nbig bike... well.. lets be blunt... it aint no big-bike, and neither you nor any learner you sell it on to should be doing drag'n'slip[ on it either.... ie this is NOT a problem, with the bike, thatr it does something 'strange'; when the ridr does something 'strange' with it, theat it was never designed to do, that it domnt need to be able to do, and that is not really helpful to any-one.
Sush drive rubbers have been mentioned... on the CG they aught to be simple metalastic-bushed pressed into the back wheel hub, four pins bolted to the sprocket sit in, the sprocket held on with a large C-Clip..... rather notoriouse, folk undo the peg drive nuts to change the sprocket, loose the C-~Clip and mumble about the sprocket wobbling...
IF riding the dang thing 'clean' not trying to drag'n'slip like it was a big-bike... the problem persists.. THAT is where I would look first... at the state of the Chain and speockets, sprocket retension by way of the drive pes and C-Clip, alignment of rear wheel and adjusters that are so oft chewed to bludgeyry, wtc et etc...
B-U-T, any 'judder' could be in any [part of the drive line from the motor to the back wheel, and simply here and now you are looking presuming a fault that simply ISN'T with the mechanics... but on the RIDING... trying toii Drag'n'Slip, which is NOT a good practice on ANY size bike, but may be more apropriate on a big-bike, for Mod1 cone excersises, and little more.
REALLY this is NOT good practice and far FAR from a displaty of 'fine conmtrol' its actually an abdication of control and admission you dont have much, but hey! You can pat your head and rub your tummy...
As said... report back what its like when toy 'just' ride the dang thing properly. |
As much as I'd like to agree with you, I struggle to find any backing for your argument that the clutch shouldn't be slipped. If a clutch should not be slipped, why use a lever, which allows for continuous variation? Why not have a dichotomous on/off switch? How do you do a turn in the road juddering around in first, at idle with the clutch fully out? How do you creep up a hill whilst waiting to turn right into a minor road? These are but some of the scenarios that I can think of. I DO agree that the rear brake should not be used as a throttle, with the revs kept high and clutch slipped (as this would burn out the clutch). I also strongly believe that the skills learnt in a mod 1 test are very relevant to real-world bike control. This brilliant video here by Russell at Roadcraft Nottingham serves to reinforce the notion that this sort of riding IS perfectly acceptable, and one could argue, a lot more skilful than chugging around in first at idle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zimWTIegDYg (especially from around 12min onwards)
But, I digress, and I find your suggestions of the origin of the judder helpful, and thanks for contributing. Be that as it may, I refute your suggestions that this is a rider problem. Others have ridden the bike and have confirmed the issue! |
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T6Clement |
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T6Clement L Plate Warrior
Joined: 07 May 2020 Karma :
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Posted: 19:36 - 07 May 2020 Post subject: |
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Merlin_531 wrote: | Teflon-Mike wrote: | Oh-Kay... its an almost thirty year old learner bike, that has likely sufferered over two decades of the idea 'low-maintenance' means 'no-maintenence', that you have restored... and are assessing by criteria that yolu believe it 'should' do drag'n'slip, liuke a nbig bike... well.. lets be blunt... it aint no big-bike, and neither you nor any learner you sell it on to should be doing drag'n'slip[ on it either.... ie this is NOT a problem, with the bike, thatr it does something 'strange'; when the ridr does something 'strange' with it, theat it was never designed to do, that it domnt need to be able to do, and that is not really helpful to any-one.
Sush drive rubbers have been mentioned... on the CG they aught to be simple metalastic-bushed pressed into the back wheel hub, four pins bolted to the sprocket sit in, the sprocket held on with a large C-Clip..... rather notoriouse, folk undo the peg drive nuts to change the sprocket, loose the C-~Clip and mumble about the sprocket wobbling...
IF riding the dang thing 'clean' not trying to drag'n'slip like it was a big-bike... the problem persists.. THAT is where I would look first... at the state of the Chain and speockets, sprocket retension by way of the drive pes and C-Clip, alignment of rear wheel and adjusters that are so oft chewed to bludgeyry, wtc et etc...
B-U-T, any 'judder' could be in any [part of the drive line from the motor to the back wheel, and simply here and now you are looking presuming a fault that simply ISN'T with the mechanics... but on the RIDING... trying toii Drag'n'Slip, which is NOT a good practice on ANY size bike, but may be more apropriate on a big-bike, for Mod1 cone excersises, and little more.
REALLY this is NOT good practice and far FAR from a displaty of 'fine conmtrol' its actually an abdication of control and admission you dont have much, but hey! You can pat your head and rub your tummy...
As said... report back what its like when toy 'just' ride the dang thing properly. |
As much as I'd like to agree with you, I struggle to find any backing for your argument that the clutch shouldn't be slipped. If a clutch should not be slipped, why use a lever, which allows for continuous variation? Why not have a dichotomous on/off switch? How do you do a turn in the road juddering around in first, at idle with the clutch fully out? How do you creep up a hill whilst waiting to turn right into a minor road? These are but some of the scenarios that I can think of. I DO agree that the rear brake should not be used as a throttle, with the revs kept high and clutch slipped (as this would burn out the clutch). I also strongly believe that the skills learnt in a mod 1 test are very relevant to real-world bike control. This brilliant video here by Russell at Roadcraft Nottingham serves to reinforce the notion that this sort of riding IS perfectly acceptable, and one could argue, a lot more skilful than chugging around in first at idle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zimWTIegDYg (especially from around 12min onwards)
But, I digress, and I find your suggestions of the origin of the judder helpful, and thanks for contributing. Be that as it may, I refute your suggestions that this is a rider problem. Others have ridden the bike and have confirmed the issue! |
Completely agree wth this, been riding bikes for 40 years, and I still remember and use low speed control aspects I learnt when I was a youngster. No idea about the clutch though, I wonder if its worth cleaning the plates, in case a bit of something has gotten lodged?
Regards |
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martin734 |
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martin734 Spanner Monkey
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 3 years, 353 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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