Jap bike museum in the UK...viable?

[chickenstrip]

A friend of mine from the Fazer forum went to the vintage Jap bike day at the Ace Cafe yesterday, posted a few pics on the forum. Got me thinking about it again.

Do you think a museum of Jap bikes would be a viable thing in this country? I'd love to set up one myself, but obviously it'd take a very considerable investment to do it. I know I'd spend quite a lot of time in such a museum myself, just reliving the days of my youth, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one?

If anyone is going to, I reckon they ought to get cracking, as all the old favourites are obviously becoming rarer and rarer.

Oh well, something to daydream on
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[johnsmith222]

I doubt a Jap bike museum would do so well here, especially when you have museums on the scale of the Riverside Museum in Glasgow which has a much wider appeal, and is free to attend.

Although there's a lot of people who are interested in bikes, I suspect those who are interested would likely visit once, unless you are changing the bikes that are there regularly.

I remember seeing on a motorbike show that there was a museum on the isle of man for british bikes, and that seems to do relatively well, although that has the draw of the TT bringing in the bikers. Also it seemed rather like an old guy that just liked restoring bikes, and opened them up to the public sort of thing (I could be wrong though).

I could be completely wrong though, as I'm not from the era of the 70s and 80s bikes, although I do understand of the appeal, especially after enjoying riding a few 80s Z1000s that friends had in the past.

[Polarbear]

I think it mainly would appeal to our age group.

We were brought up when the Japanese were taking over from the British, when 2 strokes ruled the smaller bike market, when the in line 4 made it's first appearance.

You will never ever get another age like that for bike manufacture. New models were coming out every few minutes. Mad projects like the RE5 made it into production and Suzuki made the GT750

Fabulous days
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[chickenstrip]

Thing is, I often think I'd like to own some of the bikes I had then again, but then I think they wouldn't be much fun to ride after more modern fare. But it's always nice to see good examples, so a museum would allow people to do that who either haven't got the money to buy anything like it themselves, or who feel the same way.

If such a place was successful, some of the profits could always be ploughed back in to add to the collection, keep it fresh, so to speak.
It annoys me that there are a few places you can go to see old British bikes, but there will be less and less interest in them as those who had and remember them pass away. Seems logical to me to move on to the next era.

Polarbear, that's bang on my thinking.
It would probably take a wealthy enthusiast to establish such a collection, perhaps someone who does it for the love rather than outright profit.
There's a huge list of bikes that would qualify to be represented, and it could always be added to as the years go by, with stuff that is current now, keeping the interest alive.

Perhaps an even more relevant idea now than ever before, with the search to find alternative fuels, electric bikes starting to gain some interest. Perhaps even extend the theme to petrol powered bikes generally, eventually.
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[Enduro Numpty]

I'm of the generation that would certainly pay to see vintage Japanese bikes. Whether it would be viable just doing Japanese bikes is probably doubtful. Maybe as part of a larger collection of vintage vehicles?

There is a superb transport museum in Alford, near Aberdeen that as well as vintage cars, trucks etc.. has a brilliant bike collection. Many of them are Japanese classics from the 70's & 80's. The museum has a small track and is very proactive holding car and bike events throughout the year. It holds the Grampian Motorcycle Convention which after the BSB round is probably the biggest bike event in Scotland.

To top it all off the museum is located close to some superb bike roads with easy access to the central and western highlands. Highly recommended if you're ever up this way.

[jjdugen]

Go to the Stafford shows, April and I think, October. You'll see all the classic Jap stuff you could possibly want, plus Italian and Brits too. Once you've seen them all for the umpteenth time, it becomes pretty Bleauh. Static stuff is just cold metal, pretty as it is and a lot of damn hard work too, but the classic race series a least allow you to see and hear them in action.
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[thx1138]

Private Collection - with open days, probably more viable.

[lingeringstin...]

Private collections, James May, Blokes Of A Certain Age remembering bikes they never had but always wanted. There's probably already a massive collection of nice old Jap bikes hidden away in private garages in the UK. Maybe instead of trying to fund a museum you should find a way to get them all together somewhere for a yearly month long show.

[chickenstrip]

[Teflon-Mike]

In 1980, Swede Ulf Karlsson, won the World Trials Championship on a 350cc Montesa Cota, built in Spain. It was the companies first and only ever World Trials title.. that was then, actually only five six seasons old.

The company had been making a 'works' trials replica, since 1967, when the European Championship started, and after Paco Bulto had sold his shares in Montesa to start his own company, and got Sammy Miller to develop the Sherpa trials bike to promote it (And, a certain Frank Sheene to evolve road race specials, which his son cut his road racing teeth upon...)

Ulf Karlsson's 1980 WTC victory, however was the only 'title' the company would ever win, as an independant 'Spanish' factory, owned in partnership between the Permanyer Family and the Spanish government... and yet, since Paco Bulto's disposal of his shares the company, and with increasing financial trouble through the '70's, Honda had been buying a stake in the company... who had been making Melody Mopeds undr licence in Spain for some years when Karlsson's World Trials Title, causes some consternation to Honda who had been intent on a 'clean sweep' of FIM motorcycle 'world titles'.. and doing so with four-stroke machines....

In GP racing, the oval-piston NR500 was trying to make two-stroke power with a four-stroke, V8 with only four combustion chambers... ad a lot of carbon-fibre, and in trials, the company backed a Belgian rider, Eddie Lejeune, campaigning an XL 250 derived four-stroke single, who 'oh! Isn't that a co-incidence! Managed to win the first WTC ever on either a Japanese branded bike, and a four-stroke in 1982... after Honda had increased their share holding in Montesa to over 50% to become the controlling share holders... and stopped making the 'cota' trails bike....

So, would my 1981 Montesa Cota, that says 'Made in Spain' on the crank cases, handle-bar and pretty much anything else they could stamp, be eligible for the 'Jap-Bike museum? Honda in modern corporate propaganda, certainly include Karlsson's championship victory in their list of credits along with Lejeune's TL's tites, and the later HRC-Montesa 314 titled won notably by Dougie Lampikin in the naughties.... Would a spanish built Montesa 315R, of late 90's vintage, built in Spain be eligible for the 'Jap' museum?

Which is tickling the tab of the worm can, really, isn't it?

OK, what about a 1977 lauch-year Honda GL1000? The start of the immortal Gold-Wing? Designed ad later 100% built in the USA... which also begs question of the 'Big-Red' and Elsior Dirt-bikes, that preceded the companies world MX championship moto-cross bikes, also significantly developed and built in the USA.... that begs menton of the MT125 over-the-counter GP racer, that preceded the immortal RS's... based on Elsinor engines and oh, yes, made in 'merica....

And debate wouldn't be complete without mentioning the legendary CG125... intended almost from the outset in 1977 to be built in the Brazilian satalite factory, where most actually (eventually) were; which is long before Honda followed both precedents and bought up failing Eurp factories, or invested in new ones in developing countries in Afrca or Asia to make thier machies, including oteably the renouned NS and NSR125, this forum was actually founded to support!

And THAT is just Honda... and where Honda lead, Suzuki was encouraged to follow, and Yamaha were seldom far behind.

Would the Bimota YB series of machines be eligible for this 'Jap' museum? What about the Italy built TZR's?

I seem to recall, in research, that before 1960, there were something like twenty or more identifiable 'Japanese' motorcycle manufacturers, that included such names some may recognize as Bridgestone and Honduka; they weren't all small upstarts that only made a handful of bikes before going out of business, before Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha were left the 'incumbents', by the late 1960's...

This all sort of offers a bit of a dilemma... because is you were to make eligibility entirely based on Japanese design and manufacture, the largest number of eligible bikes would actually be ones no-one has ever heard of, that were built by tiny little rice-shops in the early post WWII era, whilst bikes that we associate with being 'Japanse', like the Honda Gold-Wing, or the NSR125, actually aren't...

Into the 80's, we get that techno race happening, with the early 'power-valves' and 'eLCies', that can be stretched to include stuff like the original GPz600 and 900R's, the FZ750, and oh, that and the FJ1100, were both Bimota inspired.developed, weren't they? And the minefield of what was Jap-designed and Jap built starts to get ever more treacherous, as 'globalization' starts to bite, and Jap brands built in other parts of Europe and Asia, and design de-centralized, and done in partnership, as with Bimota, and even 'British' Bloor-Triumphs....

WHERE would you draw the lines? OR would you chuck them out the window, and say just call it the 'Modern Motorcycle Museum' or 'The Bikes we Remember from our youth Museum?'.......

And I have to ask whether the 'museum' as a concept, and certainly a specialist museum like a motor or motorcycle museum has had it's day.... as has been suggested, it's all rather dead-metal, and static. We live in an era of interactive computer simulation, where people would prefer to steal a 'virtual' Ford GT40 and than look at a real one...

Even thirty years ago, I often found the displays ad paraphernalia; photo-records of a bike being restored, or rare contemporary reviews, the more 'interesting' than just looking at yet another De-Dion/Minerva motor in a Stanley-Safety-Cycle push-bike frame with a leather belt drive..... And that sort of 'added interest' is ow all available, on demand on-line.

Existing museums? There are two on my door-step; the National Motorcycle Museum, and The Coventry Transport Museum... I had to check the date! October 1984 was when the NMM first opened, on a spit of land on the edge of the M42 'extension' and Bikenhill (NEC/air-port!) development. I remember visiting the year it opened and being rather disappointed all they had was old Brit-Bikes, and these days they are all VERY old Brit-Bikes! And despite the claim that all 'museum' machines were fully restored to working order... actually few were museum machines! One of the more exiting n the collection was the pre-production (as it never went 'in' to production!) Triumph Fury/BSA Bandit exhibits... which ISTR at that time they admitted were 'display only' as they didn't have the bits to make one run! In more recent years, they have, I believe been a bit more conscientious about the standard or restored machines, and do actually put machines not on display into some classic parades, and occasionally hold dynamic displays, possibly inspired by CTM, who's ethos is for conservation rather than restoration, and who tried to enter vehicles, particularly the bikes into rallies and parades.

Which is to beg some consideration; The Sammy Miller Museum, (I have never visited, I have to shamefully admit.. I think, in thirty odd years trials riding buying pattern mudguards and levers off the chap every other week, I probably paid for the darn place!) Started as Miller's 'Private collection'.. restoring old Brit-Bikes that he acquired on shop premixes in slow time (and retirement!) and leaving them on display... but chap did actually put many into classic race in the early days, and others have regularly been paraded...

So, IS a museum the best way to show-case old bikes? And in modern era, is a static display, just too static and old fashioned? A-N-D... would a permanent facility, like the NMM or CTM even 'work' let alone be financially viable?

Especially in the face of more modern, more dynamic 'events' like the Good-wood Festival of Speed; the Banbury Run; Rugby Ride-In; Coventry's Motor-Fest, etc etc etc... and those are just the family friendly ones!

On any week-end over the summer, 'now' I have choice of events to attend, from such headline events, down to grass-roots club rallies and shows, or even informal 'meets'....

A-N-D number of such shows, rallies and events, that are stages each year I have to say, has boomed exponentially from what it was at the turn of the century....

Which brings me back to whether 'museums' particularly motor-museums have essentially had their day.... I mean when I was a kid, a museum was a museum... you went, you walked in, you looked at what they had to show... ad that was pretty much it... they have had to evolve, and create changing displays to say fresh, to stay relevant, and now, have to get out of the museum, stage actvity days, put on 'shows' or theme events, and be more than just a depository of old junk, but part theater, part school, part gallery, etc etc etc...

And when I was a kid, there were only three TV channels! 'Pong' on a console that plugged into the TV was a whole holidays entertainment for the family! Modern expectation is 'so' much higher, boredom thresholds so much lower, and competition so much fiercer... and disposable income that much more thinly stretched...

So do I think its a good idea? Frankly? No. I don't even think, that at this stage its more than a 'notion'.. to make it an idea so much more would need to be thought about, and to make it a viable one, ever so much more than that.... and deliberation over what may or may not be a 'Jap-Bike' only the very beginning.

And fundamentally, what's the objective? To create a repository of nostalgia, for folk that probably remember the machines that may be displayed, or to promote old bikes, and interest in them, and still, IS a 'museum' the best way to do that, and do we need to expand our ideas of what a 'museum' may be or should do?

Post-Script Ponders!

In our pre-packaged, on demand, press-button world. 'novelty' comes not from what we can see but what we can touch.

Something I pondered last time I (disappointingly!) visited the NMM, was how much 'more' interested I might be in what was going on 'behind' the display halls, where the bikes were being turned from rusty old scrap into display exhibits.. that I DIDN'T get to see... or how MY kids, brought up in a world where Pontiac Fiero's can be upgraded to Ferarris with a cheat code, and given nitreous oxide from a menu screen, were 'wowed' not by seeing an unusual bike like a Bimota Tesi and asking "Where's the forks Dad?" but watching me dangle a rusty Honda Super-Dream horn bracket in a tuppaware of salt water on a battery charger to 'de-rust' by electrolysis, or even more astounding to me, asking 'What's that?' when I took out a spark plug, ad being fascinated at how the thing worked ad why it was important to the engine!

Perhaps, modern attitudes and 'lost' craft skills, mean that a 'Hands-On' interactive museum, getting visitors intimate with oily bits of bikes, showing the actual mechanics and getting them involved in the act of sparring, would be where the ;wow' would more likely come from... b-u-t.... how could you do that... and show t all the way from scrap to show-piece, more not just show the show-piece but let them experience it.. A-N-D do it on the door-money they'd be prepared o pay!

Tough cookie....
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[MarJay]

Beaulieu and Sammy Miller both have a few japanese bikes, and David Silver recently opened a Honda museum. If there was one near me, I'd certainly go although I think jap only is a little restrictive. Why not just say all bikes 1967-2007 or something?
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[chickenstrip]

[ScottT]

I've always thought there is a trick being missed with all these places that have regular bike meets in the middle of nowhere.

Decent sized building, cafe/pub a few big screen tv's big car park, showing Moto GP/ WSB, BSB live every sunday, then recorded and shown later in the day for the people who ride first then pop in for a brew, bacon bun and watch the racing.

Tie all that into a bike museum and yes it should be popular, just pick a decent location, easy to get to with some good roads close and the bikes will turn up. The cafe/bar would be the main money earner as people who use that will only pop into the museum once or twice a year, but may use the cafe 20-30 times a year.

As much as i would enjoy seeing old jap bikes, if you want a bigger audience then you need to add others, the die hard British bike fan will not go to a museum to see just jap bikes, stick a 1921 Triumph in the corner (that has a bit of history) and they will visit.
50% Jap bikes the rest made up of British, Italian, German etc and it appeals to everyone. Have an over 30yrs old cut off so you can add to the collection every year and there is always something new.

Talk to local VMCC & VJMC clubs, organise events so they turn up and help fill the car park, a big field behind would be handy for camping/weekend events.
A local classic car club meets once a month at my local car/bike museum, often whats in the car park is more interesting than whats inside.
Get good insurance/security offer free storage to old bike owners who dont ride their bikes, that would help kickstart the collection, a once a year run where the bikes are taken out and ridden works as people want to see them being used.

Any bike museum will attract visitors, in Keswick (Lake District) there is a pencil museum!!!! And people visit that!
The wider base of people that would be interested the more visitors you get. 100% Jap wont get as many visitors as 50% Jap 50% others but that doesn't mean you have to cut back, if you were thinking 75 Jap bikes, go with 75 but add another 75 from other countries.

I just think some museums could do a lot more to bring people in.

[secretagentmo...]

I have been to the Norfolk Motorcycle Museum, they have some interesting Jap stuff, mind you I have a bike that would probably as an exhibit now...

[stevo as b4]

I was going to mention the David Silver museum, which has this kind of thing well covered as do other old bike/vehicle museums too.

Im definitely with the idea of trying to bring the people together with the bikes and enthusiasm and passion we want to see. The idea of meet ups, ride outs and track day events appeals so much more than static museum exhibits etc

I think that all that is jizz worthy in the world of motorcycling today, is happening in people's sheds and garages tucked away around the nation.

You have events like two stroke only track days, meet ups at Squires and the Ace cafe etc. Fuck me if I'm going to get the chance to see some radical modified classic strokers with lots of aftermarket parts, and modern stroker technology incorporated, then I really want to hear and smell them during fly bys.

If someone builds a trick modified FS1E etc with Ohlins suspension and 16bhp, I need to see and hear it in action!

That's why I really need to go to one of the GP legends events, either in the UK or abroad, while there's some bikes left and ex champions of the un-ridables era to demonstrate them. Must do this asap!

[chickenstrip]

[MarJay]

[stevo as b4]

What about the Barber museum in the states?
I do for sure agree that the world and even each nation probably needs places where at least one mint example of all the interesting and iconic old bikes is kept on display, and in std condition.

Not quite museums, but my local bike dealer has 250&350cc Kawasaki triples near the window, a nice std 350LC, a 98 R1, etc etc. And Cradley Kawasaki has some real beauties like a Z1 and H2 750, and a KT250 etc.

I think the entire contents of all the members of the RDLC forum/club would be more exciting though to see and get together. Thing is your not going to want to remember your old LC's, FS1E's and Z900's or 650's in std form and with quiet OEM pipes.

Your going to want Microns, Allspeeds, Piper 4-1's or Yoshi/Kerker race pipes or V&H drag pipes etc.

[chickenstrip]

[MarJay]

[chickenstrip]

[stevo as b4]

Thing is though, that your going about it all the wrong way by asking people for help and donations to the display.

All your going to get off people is a load of blown up knackered Superdreams, rusty GS500's, and a skip full of broken old mopeds and trashed field bikes.

Im not sure a knackered Superdream, a few stolen recovered DT125's and a faded cracked Honda vision or two is going to start a museum collection that will make you end your 50's in a Bentley, and your spare time pencilled full of weekends at exotic golf courses etc!

[chickenstrip]

Oh ffs! I'm not asking anyone for anything. I'm not entirely stupid (I like to kid myself). It's just an idea that I thought might generate some discussion to do with..... bikes! Shock, horror!

BTW, in my imaginary museum, Superdreams won't get a look-in
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[linuxyeti]

You've already got the National Motorcycle Museum

https://www.nationalmotorcyclemuseum.co.uk/

granted, it's British Bikes, but then, can't say I've been in a rush to go there, last time I went was when they had the computer market there. There is the crux, it's a good museum, but it needs to hold oter events to survive, for example, over the next couple of weeks, there's a paper craft fair, a coin and banknote fair and the Birmingham Arms fair, again, unrelated to bikes.

For most of the general public, a motorcycle museum doesn't hold a great deal of interest, and, dare I say, alot of motorcyclists probably aren't all that interested in motorcycle museums.

What's needed, is something similar to the Auto und technikmuseums at Sinsheim and Speyer in Germany. I've been to both a few times, certainly more times than I've been to the motorcycle museum in Birmingham. As a taster, look here

https://sinsheim.technik-museum.de/en/motorbikes

The homepages are ..

https://www.technik-museum.de/en/

Both of these museums are excellent, and going down the slides from the aircraft, is fun !
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[Polarbear]

linuxyeti wants a Chinese bike museum

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.nJaf3-AYlMBVgR4R1VxBWgEhDX&w=215&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7

Sorry, couldn't resist
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