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HAHAHAHA- they can feck off.

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lingeringstin...
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 01 May 2014
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: HAHAHAHA- they can feck off. Reply with quote

My bike's engine is now officially 16cc smaller than it was. Oh dear! I must change my logbook immediately!




"What evidence to give

You must give DVLA evidence or written confirmation if you make any of the following changes to your vehicle. Your V5C update will be rejected if you don’t.

Change of engine number or cylinder capacity (cc)

You need to provide either:

a receipt for the replacement engine
written evidence from the manufacturer
an inspection report provided for insurance purposes
written confirmation on headed paper from a garage (if the change took place before you bought the vehicle)"




Oh dear- looks like I'll have to get a rebore so my engine matches my logbook.
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 11:49 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure ... is this actual biking news, or is it just a rumour?
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Stoker
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope you've informed your insurers, cos if you are involved in an accident, they will be all over your bike looking for mods and enhancements that will....oh, hang on a mo....Where's Teff.....?
generic answer..

'Average' statistical risk of coming a cropper on a bike, is something in the order of 1 in 100,000 miles. Starts to get a bit skewed when you analyse it; BUT nice to know that that average is pulled down a heck of a lot by wee-end warriors doing less than 3ooo miles a year, and living GP fantasies on sunny Sundays, relatively having a lot of crashes for the few miles they do! Typical 'Learner', lacking experience and often confidence, is certainly, similarly, at higher than average odds of an off, BUT, also severity of that 'off' is significantly less.

Question; "Whats the worst that can happen?"
Answer; "I crash and DIE!"
Simple sliding scale of 1-10 does not cover it!

There's approximately 30million motorized road users in the UK, annually covering, around half a British (million, million!) 'billion' miles a year. Approximately 1% of them are by bike; so around 50,000 million bike miles... and about one rider is killed for every 1,000 million! Of whom.. a proportion aren't 'legal' licence holding riders on road legal bikes.... which up the odds for a CBT trained Newby on legal bike, BUT, actual statistical 'Risks' aren't in in 1-10 single figures! Odds, in the order of 1 in 1,000,000,000, if 10, is the certainty, the answer, empirically is err.. count the decimal places... 0.000,000,001? I think that's enough naughts! scoring ONE would be to over estimate the rsks by a million few times of or so! LOL!

Lets try a different question:
Question; "Whats the worst LIKELY to happen?"
Answer; "I crash into a car at a junction and REALLY hurt myself"
This, is a little more realistc... 'Seriously Injured' stats, would suggest that there's maybe 1,000, depending where you draw the line on what constitutes 'serious', probably even 10,000 serious injuries for every rider killed...... whilst this knocks a lot of naughts off the decimal..... its still a decimal! On the scale of 1-10? 0.000,01?

AND, we have small matter than around half of all Serious Injuries are associated with excessive speed... NOT a situation likely to be encountered by a learner on a 125, let alone a cruiser 125, which would struggle to achieve excessive speeds if you strapped a rocket to it's pillion seat! Laughing Surprised

Lets try a different question AGAIN:
Question; "Whats the worst LIKELY to happen.... TO ME?"
Answer; "I muff it up and fall off!"

NOW, the decimal point might shift a few more places. This is, for most learners, a statistical inevitability, and many will probably have a few such instances in their first 10,ooo miles or so.... so we MIGHT, if we are going more than a mile; say a half hour jaunt out that might cover 10 miles, get that decimal point up a few places to, what, 1-10? Maybe, 0.001!!!

AND severity? Well, odds is you wont die. Odds is you probably wont even be hurt enough to need a sticking plaster, let alone go to hospital! Bruise in the morning, and a little wounded pride!!

THIS does nothing to take away the fear or the worry of course, that is only natural... BUT it does display the gulf between 'actual risk' and 'perceived risk' and how much of that '"Oh my Gowddd" is almost utterly unfounded

Better questions to allay anxiety, to my mind, are to put the rsks into more appreciable context;

Would I change a light-bulb? I am more likely to hurt myself, behing electrocuted or cutting my fnger or falling off a chair, changing a light bulb than I am riding this motorbike to the shops! WHy am I worried?

Would I climb a ladder to wash the windows? That s more likely to put me in hospital with a broken leg, than riding a motorbike!

Would I think twice about laying on a beach in Benadorm with a gin spritzer, reading a book? Let alone renting a windsurfer or taking a scuba lesson, on a more 'activity' orientated holiday!

Ironical, so many people take risks like those, utterly without considering them... because the context is so different, the question is never raised, and the immediate 'Motorbikes! DAYN-JRUSS!" gut reaction, pre-conception never has a chance to raise its ugly head.

Motorbikes ARE dangerous of course... and compared to travel by car or aeroplane, which statistically, are incredibly 'safe' things to do, motorcycle safety 'isn't' all that wonderful; BUT, per participant hour, it IS a heck of a lot LESS dangerous than an awful lot of other activities, from DIY around the house, to holiday activities, to having a nice drink!

It is incredible, few stop to think of the 'danger' heading out night clubbing, or going for a quiet drink in a country pub, or opening a bottle at home to 'relax'... YET statistically, alcohol related diseases and injures, LIKE dehydration, having a spritzer whilst sun bathing, ARE all far more likely AND have as or higher severity than the risks associated with riding a motorbike... they JUST dont get thought about so often!

Rather than trying to do an industry standard RPN exercise on the job, to my mind, far better to allay anxiety by saying "Look, this safer than a going down the pub! Its NOT the big deal I am imagining!"

Contending with clinical anxiety, first rule is you will NEVER make it go away. We experience fear for a reason; its a survival instinct; you will never 'beat' your fears, and simply suppressing them IS'T healthy; its ignoring the natural warning; BUT its getting the fear response into proportion, and NOT behaving as if a man eating tiger is about to devour you, when tiddles the puddy can mews it wants some milk!

Its about getting it 'in proportion'; and here, compared to so many other 'risky'things we do every day and never worry about, riding a motorbike, REALLY shouldn't be something we need do 'so much'!

You're right; 'experience' and good experience of NOT crashing is damn good way to get the risks into some sort of proportion, and PROVE you can do it... but at the same time, NOT putting the risks into proportion with other things still leaves the worry room.

Tackle them, identify them, realist that worry room exists, BUT that it is't a gaping chasm of gloom and doom and carnage, you are on the precipice of, but a little cupboard at the back of a very big warehouse, where all life's 'other' worries are stored and FAR more likely to leap out the dark ad bite you in the bum.

tldr? well done.
Proxy teffing.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stoker wrote:
tldr? well done.
Proxy teffing.

He never does a tl;dr Crying or Very sad
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be interesting to see what the actual LAW says you have to do.

I suspect the legal requirement will stop at the level of "inform them" and the additional window dressing has been fabricated by Capita plc. as part of their internal processes

So my two questions would be:

1) If you are riding a vehicle with the incorrect capacity on the logbook, what actual offence would you be comitting?

2) If you went to court and provided in your defence, a copy of a letter informing the DVLA of the change of capacity along with proof they received it. I wonder what the outcome would be?

'tis a murky web of modified primary legislation and secondary regulation though. I'm not sure I'm man enough to wade through it all.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

At a glance.

VERA 1984 creates offences of not paying duty at a higher rate.

Sadly, there's a catch all offence:

A person is guilty of an offence if, on a public road or in a public place, he uses a vehicle [which is required to be registered and] any of the particulars recorded in the register are incorrect.

There's a particularly vicious little clause that puts the burden of proof for cylinder capacity on the accused, although curiously it doesn't apply to the catch-all offence, but does to the higher-rate-of-duty one.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
At a glance.

VERA 1984 creates offences of not paying duty at a higher rate.

Sadly, there's a catch all offence:

A person is guilty of an offence if, on a public road or in a public place, he uses a vehicle [which is required to be registered and] any of the particulars recorded in the register are incorrect.

There's a particularly vicious little clause that puts the burden of proof for cylinder capacity on the accused, although curiously it doesn't apply to the catch-all offence, but does to the higher-rate-of-duty one.


Statuatory defence (my emphasis)?

Quote:
(4)It is also a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show—

(a)that he had reasonable grounds for believing, or that it was reasonable for him to expect, that the name and address of the keeper or the other particulars of registration (as the case may be) were correctly recorded in the register,

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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, he'd never be convicted of anything.

I mean, unless he'd been posting his "crime" all over the intertubes... Whistle
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lingeringstin...
Trackday Trickster



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PostPosted: 22:57 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be willing to bet there's a fair few bikes out there with differing CC's in the engine to what is actually stated on the logbook. Mine is 16cc less now. My insurance company wouldn't even want me to bother them with this information so why should DVLA be so anal about it? How many people really change their logbooks after a rebore? But the bit that REALLY irks me is the insistence that I'd have to provide some sort of official third party "proof" that it's been done. Apparently my word for it is not binding? I've built and rebuilt the bike, every nut bolt and wire, repeatedly over the last quarter of a century and the MOT guy is perfectly happy with it.
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 09:42 - 13 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

lingeringstink wrote:
my word for it is not binding? I've built and rebuilt the bike, every nut bolt and wire, repeatedly over the last quarter of a century and the MOT guy is perfectly happy with it.


Send them copies of all/any paperwork involved in this matter including invoices for all/any parts or work done by a third party.
That and a covering letter.
If that's not good enough, as you quiet rightly say, tell them to go and do one.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 13 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

lingeringstink wrote:
I'd be willing to bet there's a fair few bikes out there with differing CC's in the engine to what is actually stated on the logbook. Mine is 16cc less now.q

Every baklaf bike. Used to be Gilera DNA/Runners with 180cc engines, now it's Vespas etc. with 250 or 300cc engines (registered as 125).
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lingeringstin...
Trackday Trickster



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PostPosted: 11:00 - 13 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperami wrote:
lingeringstink wrote:
my word for it is not binding? I've built and rebuilt the bike, every nut bolt and wire, repeatedly over the last quarter of a century and the MOT guy is perfectly happy with it.


Send them copies of all/any paperwork involved in this matter including invoices for all/any parts or work done by a third party.
That and a covering letter.
If that's not good enough, as you quiet rightly say, tell them to go and do one.






Many years ago I was helping work on some vintage and otherwise "strange" vehicles and I had to deal with them about a bike issue (one of many they totally screwed up over the years) and was informed at the time that they do not recognize a cover letter from the owner as proof of anything even if the owner did all the work themselves to a high standard. In short, you The Maker have no say-so about something they know absolutely nothing about.

Also, I have absolutely no paperwork or receipts whatsoever. I think there might be an Ebay confirmation of buying a knackered quadbike engine some months ago, which is proof of nothing. And what if I use an unidentified engine I just found under a bush or a steam engine I manufactured myself out of wood and string? So long as it ticks all the MOT boxes then it's nobody's business. What if I use a motor from some industrial contraption pre 1920? Would there be any numbers on it?

Of course if I really tried I MIGHT be able to dig up some email confirmations of bearings I ordered but that hardly constitutes the "proof" they seem to be implying I must have OR ELSE.

I just think a lot of the DVLA crap is pointless bullshit and I know from experience it's administered by complete morons who can and do totally screw up in amazing ways, always at the owner's expense with no comeback whatsoever for their incompetence. Utter numbskulls the lot of them.

I would be willing to bet that more than 75% of all bikes on the road over five years old are in some way at odds with the strict interpretations of the DVLA minefield whether it be through CC differences, colour changes, chassis or exhaust modifications, changes in accessories or other completely normal things that people do to their bikes. But those people are not "criminals". DVLA creates nonexistent crimes and criminals by being an utter fuckwit organization run by total incompetents, and there is no Boss Of The DVLA to complain to when they inevitably get it wrong, which they do more often than any other "official" organization I've ever heard of.

They are idiots and immune to reprimand or prosecution. Research it. They're complete imbeciles and their convoluted and archaic rules and regulations are often completely unrealistic, unnecessary and unfathomable.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 15 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it looks like two of my bikes are in contravention.

125 has had an engine change and a spare engine, not yet fitted, with a big bore kit on it, no receipts for anything.

SRX 600 is, in reality 608cc, it's cast into the barrel, the V5 says it's 600cc, meh.

So what happens if you're on a final re-bore and have increased the capacity by a few cc's?

Whole thing is a mess, probably by design, gotta keep that 'fine' revenue rollin' in!
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techathy
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 15 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I upped the CC of my car by 31cc I just sent the log-book off with the corrected CC and that was it. No questions asked etc.
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