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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 16 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best I've seen so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TrvXwoGKKU

Why this isn't a common feature of all motorcycles? Reliability, safety concerns, not really an improvement?

Edit: Oh, and we did all this, why 2WD bikes blah blah, about 5 years ago
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 18:24 - 16 Oct 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 16 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please show us a picture of the motorcycle that you say that you have, with a tin of custard or a packet of fish fingers on it.

Until then, I call sock.
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suburban myth
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 16 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasn't there something a few years ago, summats to do with an electric motor on the front wheel, independently driven from the rear? musta been BMW, given the budget required.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 16 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Please show us a picture of the motorcycle that you say that you have, with a tin of custard or a packet of fish fingers on it.

Until then, I call sock.


Good call. 2WD would not have helped when it was lying in the road.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 16 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of a few years ago...
The Christini bikes/conversions make a lot of sense to me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lBcAp6Wp5k

Can make a big difference for non-pros it seems - getting you over/through obstacles that you'd need a lot more skill to do so on other bikes.
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colink98
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

this was the one off pawn stars....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBYIvnAjhqs
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G
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

snorkelron wrote:
hmm- think it might be useful before a potential highside for road bikes though since it's the rear wheel that loses traction and slides first.
perhaps throttle and power to front could save it- in every highside the front wheel always faces the outside of the bend and is almost stationary while the rear slides.

I have crashed on the road around 50 to 60 times I believe.
Never high sided.

Crashed on track maybe 20-30.
I've been thrown out of the seat a bit a few times, but the only time a semi-proper high side crash was when I got passed under a yellow flag at Druids at Brands and was making a bit too much effort to get the position back - got on the power a bit too hard and the bike flung me up on to the tank/screen, which I then rolled off to the right.
Not quite a proper crash because the bike carried on without me and came to rest against a hay bale.

Have properly high sided a minimoto fairly recently.

So, overall; if you're not too much a twat with the throttle, shouldn't be a big issue.

Further; as I understand it; a decent modern traction control system pretty much fixes this issue.
With a lot less weight and complexity - if you've already got ABS sensors, it's probably no more than a few hundred grams extra and nothing extra mechanically.

An two wheel drive system partially 'solves' the highside by ensuring both wheels are spinning at a similar speed - so if the rear starts spinning faster than the front, the front is "given" some of the power from the rear to try and equalise speeds.
In plenty of situations on the road this could just resort in a low side instead.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would actually like traction control. I know, right wrist, only foggits need, and so on, but try chopping and changing between bikes with widely differing amounts of torque and see if you never, ever get caught out just for a moment by forgetting how enthusiastic you can afford to be in the wet.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I would actually like traction control. I know, right wrist, only foggits need, and so on, but try chopping and changing between bikes with widely differing amounts of torque and see if you never, ever get caught out just for a moment by forgetting how enthusiastic you can afford to be in the wet.


Moto GP riders can't do even a single lap without TCS. Wink
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I would actually like traction control. I know, right wrist, only foggits need, and so on, but try chopping and changing between bikes with widely differing amounts of torque and see if you never, ever get caught out just for a moment by forgetting how enthusiastic you can afford to be in the wet.


you cant afford to be enthusiastic in the wet :p isnt that the point? fuck riding in the rain! funny when you see how different a motogp race is in the wet compared to dry (obviously i know) even the best of the best coming off at low speed
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G
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I know, right wrist, only foggits need, and so on, but try chopping and changing between bikes with widely differing amounts of torque and see if you never, ever get caught out just for a moment by forgetting how enthusiastic you can afford to be in the wet.

Perhaps my riding style wasn't as enthusiastic as I thought; but when commuting through Reading I had no problems skipping between a range of bikes that had a C90 at one end and a pre-traction control GSXR1000 at the other. Ok, a few slides on the latter (and one low slide... but the front went due to cold tyres and too much lean... not much technology would have done there.)

But; saying that; both for commuting and track work I do fancy traction control.
The former for that time when it's more than just 'a slide' and the latter so there's a safety net to let me more quickly push the limits with less worry.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
I would actually like traction control. I know, right wrist, only foggits need, and so on, but try chopping and changing between bikes with widely differing amounts of torque and see if you never, ever get caught out just for a moment by forgetting how enthusiastic you can afford to be in the wet.


Moto GP riders can't do even a single lap without TCS. Wink

Ok so the British superbikers may have less power but they're managing not to spit themselves off every corner exit and they haven't got TC. (IIRC they do have electronically controlled engine braking systems).

The issue for me wasn't going from a low BHP bike to a high BHP it is and always has been the varying amount of grip.
Having said that my latest bike has got TC...so I switched it on max. It rarely flickers. Sad Smile
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Enduro Numpty
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I would actually like traction control. I know, right wrist, only foggits need, and so on, but try chopping and changing between bikes with widely differing amounts of torque and see if you never, ever get caught out just for a moment by forgetting how enthusiastic you can afford to be in the wet.


Now on my second bike with traction control and I can quite categorically state that in my limited experience of riding with it, it will do very little to stop you from binning it. Out last weekend on my local Aberdeenshire roads on the V-Strom in varying conditions: wet, dry, damp, cow shit, sheep shit - typical Scottish. On a damp patch of road, on a right hand bend at a moderate lean angle and neutral throttle I felt the front end twitch and immediately the rear end started to slide out. Like most of these things it happens when you least expect it and it's certainly beyond my reactions to claim that I had any input in the rear tyre finding grip and avoiding the spill. This is the closest I've come to sliding off a road bike in 30 odd years - done it a lot in my youth and learned to stay on. The point is, the traction control didn't activate and do what it was supposed to. I don't imagine it's exactly motogp spec on the Suzuki but in my mind it's more a sales gimmick than a real safety aid.

The T120's TC was just as pathetic - I took it on a fire road and induced a slide on a bend and had taken control of the slide way before the TC engaged.

What it does appear to be good for is being a real killjoy - any sign of the front wheel coming up it cuts the power Evil or Very Mad

Maybe on 200bhp sports bikes ridden by 60bhp riders it's got a use but I'm unconvinced about it's merits and certainly don't rely on it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enduro Numpty wrote:
I can quite categorically state that in my limited experience of riding with it, it will do very little to stop you from binning it [at] neutral throttle

M'kay.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Speaking of a few years ago...
The Christini bikes/conversions make a lot of sense to me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lBcAp6Wp5k

Can make a big difference for non-pros it seems - getting you over/through obstacles that you'd need a lot more skill to do so on other bikes.


I've seen the hydraulic drives before but that looks to be some kind of shaft drive.

There's 2 wheel chain drive on the fat off road bikes like rokon and russian clones.



I was thinking about two wheel electric drive with some kind of independent throttle control on a pushbike
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G
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original conversion kits they did for KTMs uses a chain to twin contra-rotating telescoping shafts on either fork to drive the front wheel by a bevel drive. I presume these work the same.

Quote:
I was thinking about two wheel electric drive with some kind of independent throttle control on a pushbike

As it goes, I've got twin electric motors, on 20" rims with 16" motocross rear tyres. Though currently setup on one throttle; would be easy to add a second and wondered about that at some point.
Haven't actually used them on a bike; they're currently driving a trailer, but plan is to stick them in a bike sometime - they're high turns; so high torque, low speed.
Should make a pretty interesting electric trials bike!
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Ok so the British superbikers may have less power but they're managing not to spit themselves off every corner exit and they haven't got TC. (IIRC they do have electronically controlled engine braking systems).


I was a bit exaggerating. What I meant was, they are too depended on a fully functional TCS. Look at how agressive they are with the throttle and the jerkines of the Moto GP bikes, compared to much smoother WSBK motorcycles. Also, we all saw one of the Repsol Honda motorcycles to highside after a minor contact with other rider, which resulted in ripped cable to the rear wheel speed sensor. The first corner after that and the rider, Pedrosa iirc, went down.

I'm not saying TCS is bad, it sure makes motorcycles safer, but at the same time people shouldn't be too dependent on it. The same goes for the ABS. Just like you should never use the throttle as an ON/OFF switch, you should also avoid grabing the front brake lever.

These active safety features are supposed to be the last resort, not something to improve your riding. The same should apply to cars as well.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I high-sided my scooter with a whole 25hp or so, coming out of a junction, applying throttle as I straightened up out of the lean. I applied the throttle fairly smoothly, I reckoned at the time, but it's not like you can really be very violent with that level of power combined with CVT and an already-engaged clutch.

I was turning right, across the road, and the rear of the bike dramatically slid out to the left, my steering hit full lock left to try and stay in line, then the rear found traction again and it slapped over hard. I mangled my ankle lightly, but nothing much more.

Examining the road carefully in the aftermath of the incident, the tarmac was worn, and I can only conjecture that a stretch of bald wet tar had significantly lower traction than the rest of the road surface, and I was unlucky that the rear found it.

Another risk factor is dribbles of diesel on roundabout exits near petrol stations. Those can catch you out even when it's dry, there's one I've slipped a little bit on the Brutale a couple of times in the same spot - not applying a big handful of throttle, just enough where it steps out when combined with lean.
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Enduro Numpty
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, my limited experience with TC has been disappointing but if I'm getting it on a bike whether I want it or not I really would like it to be at least partially effective.
Maybe if I ride in the wet like I ride in the dry it will do something but I'm not really prepared to try. I have done a lot of fairly quick, wet riding on the V-Strom and have never (until last weekend) had any issues even though in this instance I was riding with what I would normally consider to be a large safety margin. I was beginning to think that as the TC seemed so unobtrusive it might be a worthwhile safety net but I'm now left thinking that if it can't save a spill when I'm taking it easy then what's the point.

I am a convert to ABS. I believe it's saved me a couple of times, not when conditions are bad or panic braking, but for all intents and purposes when conditions appear good. The lever pulsing is enough to let me know that the grip is limited. This is what I would like from TC.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enduro Numpty wrote:

I am a convert to ABS. I believe it's saved me a couple of times, not when conditions are bad or panic braking, but for all intents and purposes when conditions appear good. The lever pulsing is enough to let me know that the grip is limited. This is what I would like from TC.

But the ABS didn't save you when you were under a neutral throttle?

Traction control works by regulating the power output when too much power is used, just as ABS works by regulating the power brakes when too much force is applied through them.
When you're not using excessive brakes or power, it's not reasonable to expect either system to fix that situation.

Further; for what it's worth... apparently the cheaper systems aren't really much cop - you probably need a sports bike before you get a decent system - and then plenty will still upgrade it to an aftermarket system straight away if it's for race/track use to get the most out of it.
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garth
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PostPosted: 07:45 - 24 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Speaking of a few years ago...
The Christini bikes/conversions make a lot of sense to me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lBcAp6Wp5k

Can make a big difference for non-pros it seems - getting you over/through obstacles that you'd need a lot more skill to do so on other bikes.


I have the 'normal' version of that bike.

It's quite pokey.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 24 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best example of 2WD motorcycle being useful (not in the sense of what URAL does): https://youtu.be/si-bI84SZKA?t=32s
I also like there is a on/off switch for the 2WD mode, makes a lot of sense on a enduro. Thinking
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 24 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
(and one low slide... but the front went due to cold tyres and too much lean... not much technology would have done there.


Well tyre technology could have helped. You know, like not fitting race tyres.
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Enduro Numpty
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 24 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Enduro Numpty wrote:

I am a convert to ABS. I believe it's saved me a couple of times, not when conditions are bad or panic braking, but for all intents and purposes when conditions appear good. The lever pulsing is enough to let me know that the grip is limited. This is what I would like from TC.

But the ABS didn't save you when you were under a neutral throttle?

Traction control works by regulating the power output when too much power is used, just as ABS works by regulating the power brakes when too much force is applied through them.
When you're not using excessive brakes or power, it's not reasonable to expect either system to fix that situation.

Further; for what it's worth... apparently the cheaper systems aren't really much cop - you probably need a sports bike before you get a decent system - and then plenty will still upgrade it to an aftermarket system straight away if it's for race/track use to get the most out of it.


Just for the sake of science I thought I'd see how far I could push the Suzuki before I could provoke the TC. In the most sensitive setting, not very far would seem to be the conclusion. Coming out of a slow second gear corner with a fair bit of lean and throttle, the light began to flash though I didn't notice any drop in power. No sensation of the bike sliding. Tried it again in the less sensitive setting and it didn't. Not really brave (or stupid) enough to try giving it big throttle at big lean in the wet so not really any further forward.

Maybe some day it will save me from myself?
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