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Polarbear
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 15:07 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
There are people still alive who fought in the second world war.

Remain rolled out a veteran who reckoned he was fighting for unity, I thought they fought for sovereignty Thinking

Polarbear wrote:
She voted no to the EU the first time round and cried when we joined it.

I've talked to people who voted no the first time round yet wanted to remain this time Confused


Of course you have. People change, ideas change. You can find someone who would want Hitler or Stalin (or Gaddafi) in power because of stability if you ask round for long enough. There are people in Spain who still support Franco(s ideas)

There is no right and no wrong, just opinions.

I'm sure if the whining students had got off their asses on referendum day and voted we would still be part of the EU, but they didn't so we have the situation we have now and they can bleat as much as they want. They blame the old for destroying their future by voting leave, when they have no idea of what they went through (or no interest) in the past to give them the right to vote on life changing decisions. To them it doesn't matter and in maybe 20 years time it won't because that generation will all be gone.

I don't even say that is wrong, it's just life. My kids only have an abstract interest in the war, they never met people who lived and fought through it.

Whoever had won the referendum, there would have been repercussions. The fact it was so close means no one is still satisfied. The MP's are still trying to do what they want and dress it up as the will of the people in whatever guise they can. People like Blair just ignore the people and say leavers are idiots who should be ignored. Boris just picks which side he thinks will win and May is a headless chicken.

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Robby
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't forget the lies, which a lot of people believed.

£350m a week, let's spend it on the NHS. It appeals to people that thought £350m is a lot in terms of govt spending, and people that thought govt spending is based on some fixed pot of money, where spending less on one thing means you can definitely spend it on the thing some people want. Also, £350m was inaccurate. People are still arguing now about just how innacurate.

We could have an Australia-style points based immigration system. We already did, just not for EU nationals. No-one knows what the future immigration rules will look like for EU nationals.

Let's take back control. This one pisses me off, because people still think they are "taking back control". Fine, but it means you're taking control away from the slow, methodical, and heavily scrutinised lawmaking process of the EU (where all member states can use their experts to feed into the process and make a law that should work). You're then giving that control to the government of the day in Westminster. This is great when you agree with everything the current government does and you are ideologically aligned with them. This is not great at other times.

Brexit. The one time that having Irish grandparents paid off.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:

We could have an Australia-style points based immigration system. We already did, just not for EU nationals. No-one knows what the future immigration rules will look like for EU nationals.


Which was never fit for purpose, easy to circumnavigate and generally ignored once people had entered the country. Also it was nothing like the Australian system.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
Also, £350m was inaccurate.

What's the real number? If you know it's not that, you must know what it is, right?

Also, what claim are we talking about? The one about having an extra £350 million a week to spend (and if so, who made that claim?) or the one about gaining control of £350 million a week?


Robby wrote:
it means you're taking control away from the slow, methodical, and heavily scrutinised lawmaking process of the EU (where all member states can use their experts to feed into the process and make a law that should work).

Can you name three that do?

The ABS / anti-tamper bollocks, for example, was created in large part by one "expert" (rapporteur), Wim van de Camp, who could see no reason why all the gadgets that were already fitted to his BMW should not be fitted to all motorcycles over 125cc.

The main "opposing" voice was shadow rapporteur Kerstin Westphal, who disagreed to the extent of trying to have ABS mandated for mopeds and 125 as well. She adopted this position after a "fact finding" trip to her constituent Bosch, who completely coincidentally were at that time developing an ABS system for mopeds and 125s.

And that's how EU democracy works. The more you find out, the fouler it feels.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Of course you have. People change, ideas change. You can find someone who would want Hitler or Stalin (or Gaddafi) in power because of stability if you ask round for long enough. There are people in Spain who still support Franco(s ideas)

There is no right and no wrong, just opinions.

I'm sure if the whining students had got off their asses on referendum day and voted we would still be part of the EU, but they didn't so we have the situation we have now and they can bleat as much as they want. They blame the old for destroying their future by voting leave, when they have no idea of what they went through (or no interest) in the past to give them the right to vote on life changing decisions. To them it doesn't matter and in maybe 20 years time it won't because that generation will all be gone.

I don't even say that is wrong, it's just life. My kids only have an abstract interest in the war, they never met people who lived and fought through it.

Whoever had won the referendum, there would have been repercussions. The fact it was so close means no one is still satisfied. The MP's are still trying to do what they want and dress it up as the will of the people in whatever guise they can. People like Blair just ignore the people and say leavers are idiots who should be ignored. Boris just picks which side he thinks will win and May is a headless chicken.

Welcome to Britain Thumbs Up

Well I find it interesting, I suspect part of it was going against the 'system', although now they're happy to conform. I also don't buy into this oldies voting to leave and youngers wanting to stay, sure that's what the media tell us but they also said Brexit wouldn't happen, or Trump. Maybe I only know oddballs but I know plenty of young workers who voted leave and older people who voted to remain.

Robby wrote:
Don't forget the lies, which a lot of people believed.

Both sides did, you're aware of how politicians operate right? The 350 million claim was debunked at the time, and has been repeatedly done so since but remoaners are still struggling with it for some reason.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:

Let's take back control. This one pisses me off, because people still think they are "taking back control". Fine, but it means you're taking control away from the slow, methodical, and heavily scrutinised lawmaking process of the EU (where all member states can use their experts to feed into the process and make a law that should work). You're then giving that control to the government of the day in Westminster. This is great when you agree with everything the current government does and you are ideologically aligned with them. This is not great at other times.


It's been said before but there are three questions you should ask of the people making your laws. Be that the Westminster Government or the European Commission (the de-facto law makers in the EU).

1) How did YOU get that job?

2) How do I get that job?

3) How can you be removed from that job?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
BTW did we really need another Brexit thread? Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
I also don't buy into this oldies voting to leave and youngers wanting to stay, sure that's what the media tell us but they also said Brexit wouldn't happen, or Trump. Maybe I only know oddballs but I know plenty of young workers who voted leave and older people who voted to remain.


You might well be right but in the end the demographics, while they don't matter to the result, matter intensely to some participants.

Dear Diane Abbott wants to put forward that racism is the only reason for voting leave and it was only whiteys that voted this way. It is patently untrue but there is just enough shreds of truth in it that a lot of people who WANT to believe it go along with the accusations.

I'm would expect MOST university student who voted voted to remain. Not because they are particularly going to benefit from it but they aren't going to be hindered by it either.

I would also expect the less well educated to vote leave because they are going to be the most affected by job competition.

It's all guess work though and in the end none of it matters unless May and the government fall before brexit is finalised because I'm sure Labour will offer a new referendum. Then the demographics will matter.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:00 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
BTW did we really need another Brexit thread? Laughing


Obviously or it would have died. Laughing
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

Oh, tish, you're being all irrational and Krautophobic just because they've tried to conquer Europe three times in a century, ongoing to this day.

The latest one is the most insidious, although their demographic gambit has rather backfired on them. Instead of a healthy young workforce of doctors and engineers to support their ageing population, they've got the same swarm of 65 - 85 IQ moochers and muggers as the rest of us. It'll be interesting to see how they offload or weaponise that lot, although we may not like their final solution if it involves visas and one way tickets to Treasure Island.

On a reluctantly serious note, I'd lump Brexiteers into:

Arrow Retirees who will never against trust the Hun and the Frog, with good reason.
Arrow Workers who have seen their jobs and wages threatened by migrants.
Arrow Rational phobics, i.e. anyone who has bothered to find out how the EU actually works.
Arrow Irrational phobics. All racialists did vote for Brexit.

Remoaners, I can't really fathom them, but they seem to include:

Arrow Yoofs and stuuudents whose optimism far exceeds their life experience, or the challenge of having to keep a roof over their heads (£85 to have mine sorted this morning).
Arrow Those who don't work for a living, or who have safe public sector jobs, have no idea who actually pays for their existence, and who therefore believe that they're all right, Jack.
Arrow Mumsnet progressives from the suburbs and Ruralshire to whom Diversity is still a welcome novelty, look at that lovely Nadiya from Bake Off, and who haven't experienced the scowling, insular, hostile, jabbering urban ghettoised variety yet.
Arrow Ideological globalists other than the above, i.e. those who have no excuse for not knowing better.

If I had to pick one word for each camp, I'd go with "makers" being for Brexit, and "takers" being for Remoan.


As someone who voted 'Leave'.

My job relies on being the UK market of EU/EEC goods, in a small, quite specialised industry, but one with a lot of competition (not from British goods, because they're just shit, unreliable, extortionately priced, and couldn't hit a deadline if they dropped the RDS-220 on one.

We buy in Euro's, which means the safety factor we had over and above the £:EUR is eroded considerably.

Which camp would you shoe me into?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Which camp would you shoe me into?

One that's too specifically nuanced to be significant in a necessary generalisation. Or maybe "tool of the fascist capitalist oppressors".

There were 33,577,342 uniquely flaky reasons why people chose to vote Leave, Remain, or spoiled their ballots. By the time you got to asking the people at the end of that list why they did what they did, the ones at the start would have changed their minds.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 20:20 - 17 Oct 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 18:47 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Which camp would you shoe me into?

One that's too specifically nuanced to be significant in a necessary generalisation. Or maybe "tool of the fascist capitalist oppressors".

There were 33,577,342 uniquely flaky reasons why people chose to vote Leave, Remain, or spoiled their ballots. By the time you got to asking the people at the end of that list why they did what they did, the ones at the start would have changed their minds.[list=][/list]


That's the best politico-bullshit spiel I've seen in a while.

You auditioning for Parliament?

PS. I'm upset you can't lump me into one of the Leave categories, despite your best attempts. Crying or Very sad
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 19:25 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11184605/Explainer-Why-must-Britain-pay-1.7bn-to-the-European-Union-and-can-we-stop-it-happening.html
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 21:24 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just sayin' :-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/05/14/97905329_BRISTOL_ENGLAND_-_MAY_14__Conservative_MP_Boris_Johnson_speaks_as_he_visits_Bristol_on_May_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqKjggCdpvXjoraOzAlyzu1MOSRhbr0ZABex7Vh5dC_YU.jpg?imwidth=480
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
kippyzona wrote:
We were the big boys of the EU and rather than standing around trying to trip it up we should have run it. We could have called the shots.

That's a really interesting point. Maybe we were just too late to the table, or maybe we just didn't want another empire.
kippyzona wrote:
How much control do you have when the fucking Chinese are building nuclear power stations? "Agree with us or we turn off your power"
If the current arseholes want my support they should be making this country as energy self sufficient as possible.

Absolutely! I think this is a Brexit philosophy though. We've been letting others provide for us while we fund it via a banking system (creaming profits from the labours and ingenuity of others) which screws us all when it over-reaches itself.
kippyzona wrote:
Stuff HS2 start building tidal barrages and when you've done it don't sell it to foreigners.

Kippyzona for PM.
kippyzona wrote:
I'm a Remainer

Shocked
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suntan Sid wrote:
Just sayin' :-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/05/14/97905329_BRISTOL_ENGLAND_-_MAY_14__Conservative_MP_Boris_Johnson_speaks_as_he_visits_Bristol_on_May_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqKjggCdpvXjoraOzAlyzu1MOSRhbr0ZABex7Vh5dC_YU.jpg?imwidth=480


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40860657 - please read it or one of the other 20 million articles on the subject Rolling Eyes
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
No-one knows what the future immigration rules will look like for EU nationals.


Boris claimed nothing will ever change, for the EU nationals, just the other day in Prague. Thinking
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 23:57 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pretty simple.

We were once united by ethnicity,religion, culture and most importantly values.

This changed.

One by one these ceased becoming relevant driving divisions amongst society.


Now we're united by........nothing.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:03 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Pretty simple.

We were once united by ethnicity,religion, culture and most importantly values.

This changed.

One by one these ceased becoming relevant driving divisions amongst society.


Now we're united by........nothing.

Are you joking? The sole purpose of religion's to divide people who would otherwise have no divisions.

We'll be divided as long as we have mass immigration*. As a kid in school everyone born here (whatever their background) who spoke English as their first language mixed, the kids that didn't went off into their own groups.

You see this with the group's that integrate and those that don't. Typically people who arrive in the U.K. have a community they can go and live in, which's when you get people decades later still speaking no English at all. If immigration was lower people would have to integrate.

I admit there are additional problems. The whole Islamic terrorism thing has divided people further, although I believe it would quickly go away if it were to stop, like when the IRA stopped setting bombs off.

The genius' at BLM have imported all the US hatred when we don't have the same sort of history. I really don't understand it, it's like us feeling an affinity to Australians, when I don't think we really give a f**k about them Smile

*hence why being a member of the EU's bad (to bring it back to topic) Wink
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:00 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
The sole purpose of religion's to divide people who would otherwise have no divisions.

I thought it was to invent problems to which only the priesthood are selling solutions?

Or is that "climate change science"? Thinking


M.C wrote:
English as their first language.

the group's

In what language does a non-possessive plural require an apostrophe?

Otherwise, splendid rant's.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 08:43 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40860657 - please read it or one of the other 20 million articles on the subject Rolling Eyes


I posted that image merely to wind up the people who, explicitly, denied that those words had been used anywhere, ever, never mind on the side of a bus!

HTH.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suntan Sid wrote:
I posted that image merely to wind up the people who, explicitly, denied that those words had been used anywhere, ever, never mind on the side of a bus!

Which words are incorrect?
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MCN
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PostPosted: 09:25 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
The reasons this Brexit Clusterfuck came about is because our proletarian do not think much further than their supermarket trolley contents or what's on the Telly tonight.
And the Politicians have always preyed on this part of our community.

The only thing certain is that there will be Hell to Pay.

And the benefit of Brexit is?
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