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Got Bikejacked - Stamford Hill - Recovered

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grr666
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 22 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quite the same but in the spirit of things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car

The important bit

Quote:
Bait cars are not considered entrapment because they merely afford criminals the opportunity to steal the car; entrapment, on the other hand, constitutes law enforcement persuading or encouraging a person to commit a crime that they would not have committed otherwise


So if plod was doing doughnuts on said 'bait scoot' right in the middle of <insert name of scuzzy housing estate here>
and giving a pack of ferals the mitt shouting 'come and have a go if you think you're hard enough' while their mates sat
watching from an unmarked car then that's definitely entrapment. If plod is casually mooching along on a scoot as if he
was a genuine scooterist and someone or a group takes it upon themselves to relieve him of said scoot and are
equipped to do so (weapons, rehearsed rush tactics, stolen escape scoot etc) then no sensible court would consider it as such.
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arry
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PostPosted: 09:54 - 22 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The better idea would be playing the long game.

I know Architect wouldn't want to his bike used as bait, but they've robbed his bike then left it sitting a few days to wait for the heat to die down and see if there's a tracker on it.

There is; but they would assume there wasn't, if the bike was still there when they got back to it.

Easy enough to do this with another bike that doesn't belong to someone who needs it back....

Once you've got them on a bike fully tracked, you could play the long game - monitor and track locations, people, activities; build up a picture of their crimes and who else is involved. Then, once you've got enough people in the web, pounce and scoop them all up in one go.
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TbirdX
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 22 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the courts can give them bail and ultimately, a stern tsk tsk and see you again next week.

It needs a top to bottom (ooeerrrrr) approach or else it's pretty much a waste of time....as it is now.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 22 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyscooter wrote:
this putting plod on a scooter for someone to nick would be classed as tricking someone would it not

Nope.

Entrapment would be an undercover cop befriending one of the scummy bikelife thieves and then encouraging them to steal the bike which is being ridden by a cop and followed by an unmarked car.

That would be entrapment because the bikelife yoof wouldn't have stolen that particular bike if the undercover cop hadn't encouraged them to do so.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:31 - 22 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less of the Septic cop shows with a raging hard on for "dirty hands" defences. Entrapment is not a defence in Englandish courts, see Regina vs Sang (1979) and the cases it cites.

However:

TbirdX wrote:
So the courts can give them bail and ultimately, a stern tsk tsk and see you again next week.

Spot on. By the time any of these feckers eventually get sent down for a couple of months (or 11 years if they rob an Important Person), they're already careerists.
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The999Kid
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
A remote engine kill would probably be the next logical step from the tracker (or as part of it).


Isnt that a side bonus of new keyless technology on bikes?
- rider keeps key on him
- scrotes ride off unaware of lack of key as bike is still running without rider on it
- ride off and 100m down the road engine dies as security feature.

the latest ducati diavel comes with it as at least a factory option now....
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conker
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure it doesn't cut out if the key goes out of range, it'll just not start again. At least that's how a mates car worked, he drove home, the wife got out of the passenger seat in to the drivers side and drove to her mothers. Mate had key and no car, wife had car and no key.

Imagine, battery in key goes flat mid corner, engine cuts out and possible slide/deaded time.
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P.
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

conker wrote:
I'm pretty sure it doesn't cut out if the key goes out of range, it'll just not start again. At least that's how a mates car worked, he drove home, the wife got out of the passenger seat in to the drivers side and drove to her mothers. Mate had key and no car, wife had car and no key.

Imagine, battery in key goes flat mid corner, engine cuts out and possible slide/deaded time.


Indeed, we started my hire Avensis without the key, Iain or Jordan... one of them, unsure who just drove it away while I had the key.
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natefz6
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PostPosted: 13:27 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like all you need is a chopping board Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i38qQsuEYOs
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, had many a discussion on this with a mate who has a keyless ignition motor.

He insists it will shut off after it’s out of range. Will be really funny in summer when he parks it within range of the beer garden and we move it for him. 🤣
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:33 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be careful what you wish for. Some car keyless systems were so easily l0lh4xx3d that owners were being knocked back for insurance.

Given that it took Triumph about $RAINPAL_DELIVERY_SCHEDULE years to even add an immobiliser, how quickly do you think they'd respond to bikes being remotely jacked?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

conker wrote:
Mate had key and no car, wife had car and no key.

Laughing This is how you know we're going backwards.
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conker
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the benefit of keyless entry on cars, but it's not such a big hassle to put a key in the hole and turn it.
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arry
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I'd be careful what you wish for.


Indeed. Seems pointless to me.

Some Doocaahhti bloke wrote:
So most of the time, I love the keyless ignition on the Diavel. It's one less thing to fumble with when starting up the bike and combined with the keyless steering lock the system really works great.

What I hate is that it makes me lazy about remembering where my key is. 99% of the time it's in my jacket pocket. However, I've twice now forgotten to remove the key from the seat lock after swapping seats and proceeded to ride off with it there. Because it's close to the seat, the bike registers it as being on your person and so I don't have any reminder that I need to take it out. I've actually ridden as many as 20 miles with it like that on the highway once and I just did it again today running into town for lunch. What was worse, I didn't notice it until coming OUT of the restaurant. So basically I had the bike sitting out in public with the key in it. Anyone could have ridden off with the thing.


LoLzOrZ at stupid 'murcans.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

conker wrote:
I can see the benefit of keyless entry on cars, but it's not such a big hassle to put a key in the hole and turn it.

For women who can never find anything in their handbags maybe, for guys no.

In saying that I have a habit of leaving the key in the bike so maybe keyless would work for me Embarassed Very Happy
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grr666
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our car has this feature, if running it switches off when I get about 20m away. (i've tested it)It also warns that you've
got out with the key on you by means of an external bleeper. Still a good idea though for the most part.
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haroman666
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
Our car has this feature, if running it switches off when I get about 20m away. (i've tested it)It also warns that you've
got out with the key on you by means of an external bleeper. Still a good idea though for the most part.


Have you tried having someone drive the car away from you?

It might be that it cuts out when the car is stationary, but wont cut out when it's in motion as loss of power-steering, ABS, brake servo assistance etc etc could serve as a "safety concern" from a design point of view.
I say "might" as i'm basing this off of no actual information. More of a speculative thought.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

haroman666 wrote:


It might be that it cuts out when the car is stationary, but wont cut out when it's in motion as loss of power-steering, ABS, brake servo assistance etc etc could serve as a "safety concern" from a design point of view.
I say "might" as i'm basing this off of no actual information. More of a speculative thought.


I've been driving my GF's car when she has got out to post a letter or something and forgotten the key was in her bag. You get a warning on the dash 'Key not present, engine will cut out in 20 seconds' or similar.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 15:26 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

haroman666 wrote:

Have you tried having someone drive the car away from you?

No I haven't, but I will next time I get the chance.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
Not quite the same but in the spirit of things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car

The important bit

Quote:
Bait cars are not considered entrapment because they merely afford criminals the opportunity to steal the car; entrapment, on the other hand, constitutes law enforcement persuading or encouraging a person to commit a crime that they would not have committed otherwise


So if plod was doing doughnuts on said 'bait scoot' right in the middle of <insert name of scuzzy housing estate here>
and giving a pack of ferals the mitt shouting 'come and have a go if you think you're hard enough' while their mates sat
watching from an unmarked car then that's definitely entrapment. If plod is casually mooching along on a scoot as if he
was a genuine scooterist and someone or a group takes it upon themselves to relieve him of said scoot and are
equipped to do so (weapons, rehearsed rush tactics, stolen escape scoot etc) then no sensible court would consider it as such.


Except your version isn't entrapment either as it would merely be encouraging them to do something they normally do.
I've highlighted the important bit. Thumbs Up
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
haroman666 wrote:

Have you tried having someone drive the car away from you?

No I haven't, but I will next time I get the chance.

What happens when you stall a keyless car (without the thingy)? I'm guessing there's a start button (not driven one), so will you be stranded at the traffic lights, or will the car start again? Also if you're walking away from the car, say you have your manbag on the seat etc., can someone quickly get into car and take it or is there a button to lock the doors on exit?
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instigator.
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bike would probably stop however, scroat would just knock it into neutral and matey boy on his scoot would just push the bike along by the footpegs so no difference really. It would still get broken down for parts easily enough.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 19:00 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

What happens when you stall a keyless car (without the thingy)? I'm guessing there's a start button (not driven one), so will you be stranded at the traffic lights, or will the car start again? Also if you're walking away from the car, say you have your manbag on the seat etc., can someone quickly get into car and take it or is there a button to lock the doors on exit?


Really?

Most keyless cars have stop start these days, but there is a start button. Also modern cars tend to lock automatically above about 15mph anyway. My non-keyless BMW does, and it's a 2006 model.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 23 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Really?

Yes? Eh?

MarJay wrote:
Really?Most keyless cars have stop start these days, but there is a start button. Also modern cars tend to lock automatically above about 15mph anyway. My non-keyless BMW does, and it's a 2006 model.

My doors lock automatically when driving as well, but that wasn't my question. If you walk away from the car do they (with keyless) and when? I recall Clarkson talking about this with regards to a keyless Merc' (IIRC) that didn't lock automatically, and that when you went back to the car it was (obviously) unlocked again so you couldn't tell what was going on Laughing
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