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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:35 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the biggest drawback we have is the economic system. If we weren't worried about money (and whining greenies) we could build enough nuclear reactors to power the world. We could build transit systems that were so good we wouldn't need the individual car. We could start to explore space properly, we could drag the 3rd world into the 1st world.

We could probably do most anything we set our minds to but it's never going to happen because we would need a world government with the balls to do what is best for the world, not the masses. Of course rich people are the ones with the power and aren't going to give it up.

So we need a benevolent dictator, a megalomaniac to take over the world who doesn't give a shit about upsetting people.

I'd like to volunteer Cool
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The State should own the means of production, you say?

Yes, we should take free enterprise our of the equation and remove the connection between productivity and reward. I can't see how that could possibly go wrong, again.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seemed more like a description of the Chinese method to me, or at least the long term aim.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The State should own the means of production, you say?


Uh this kind of already happened you know the way the government chooses winners and losers. Also the strange complete coincidences of course where MPs tend to get consultancies when they send their CVs to big corporations their policies benefited.


Rogerborg wrote:

Yes, we should take free enterprise our of the equation and remove the connection between productivity and reward. I can't see how that could possibly go wrong, again.



It already happened

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/US_productivity_and_real_wages.jpg
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Yes, we should take free enterprise our of the equationand remove the connection between productivity and reward [for the capitalist shitlords at the top of the pyramid]

You see that productivity has actually gone up, right?

That means that everything gets cheaper and more available for everyone, even if "real" income isn't rising.

Capitalism is civilisation. Self interest and wealth disparity is the only driver that consistently produces results.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Yes, we should take free enterprise our of the equationand remove the connection between productivity and reward [for the capitalist shitlords at the top of the pyramid]

You see that productivity has actually gone up, right?

That means that everything gets cheaper and more available for everyone, even if "real" income isn't rising.

Capitalism is civilisation. Self interest and wealth disparity is the only driver that consistently produces results.


No it doesn't. It means the people who 'own' it get richer and richer. How much will the market take, we'll charge that.

How much does an I Phone cost to make and how much do Apple charge for it? It certainly hasn't got cheaper despite how many they sell.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Under any system other than capitalism, iPhones wouldn't exist.

More productivity means more stuff.

Is it going straight from the factories to scrap heaps?

The question in the context of the original subject is whether more stuff is a good thing. Productivity is energy use, is killing Gaia, so wealth is murder.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
You see that productivity has actually gone up, right?


Haha. Rogerlogic. World has more shiny things so life must be hunky-dory for everyone.

More readily available nice things should surely mean humans, generally, only need to work half the hours to afford to buy the stuff which is now twice as abundant as it was 50 years ago. But the 'stale wages' part of the equation has prevented this from happening. People don't want things, they want freedom. Arbeit macht frei?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:43 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
You see that productivity has actually gone up, right?


Haha. Rogerlogic. World has more shiny things so life must be hunky-dory for everyone.

Make your point and smash your screen. That'll show me.

Again: all this extra productivity is going straight from the factory gates to the scrap-heap without benefiting anyone in between.

Yes or no?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Make your point and smash your screen. That'll show me.

Again: all this extra productivity is going straight from the factory gates to the scrap-heap without benefiting anyone in between.

Yes or no?


How do you define benefit?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capitalism creates crap that the sheeple think they need, like electronic handbrakes. Rolling Eyes

It is wasting resources for the sake of creating that fabrication of wealth, money.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Capitalism creates crap that the sheeple think they need, like electronic handbrakes. Rolling Eyes

It is wasting resources for the sake of creating that fabrication of wealth, money.


You forgot status.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

You'd feel no obligation to pay either back or forward the largess of first world privilege and resource consumption that you've enjoyed?

What would you contribute on a farm? Either there, or to the world?

If you don't care about producing more than you consume or helping others, to whom will you turn when you get sick and old?


My largess... Laughing

You really don't know me very well Wink

This degree is paid for by the German state, this should please you.

As a household, my family has paid in a shit ton more tax than it has taken... all high earners and high tax payers.

I think I signed on for about 2 months just after the recession hit... easier to just get a job than jump through those hoops.

And I suspect I've done more for net world happiness already than you have, me old mucko, so Mr. Green

However, I am doing a Masters to put myself in a position to help with food security crises that will no doubt unfold over the next 20-30 years. Climate change or not.

Your homework is to read "The Limits to Growth", 1972, and see how little we have moved forwards.

But within two weeks of lectures, it is obviously just trying to shovel water out of a boat with a rake.

What would I do on the farm? Again, you clearly haven't met me. Thumbs Up
I'd earn my position there, put it that way.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:


What would I do on the farm? Again, you clearly haven't seen the size of my testes. Thumbs Up

I'd earn my position there, put it that way.

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd put a lot of money on vat grown meat actually. Price right now is only double that of conventionally grown meat. A whole load less than the 250,000Euros for 200grammes in 2005.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 27 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
I'd put a lot of money on vat grown meat actually. Price right now is only double that of conventionally grown meat. A whole load less than the 250,000Euros for 200grammes in 2005.


Aye, fingers crossed.

Some of the veggie meat is getting very good too actually.

My point about tech was that it raises the ceiling, but never the underlying problem.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 04:42 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


all this extra productivity is going straight from the factory gates to the scrap-heap without benefiting anyone in between.


Well the divergence between the two lines of the chart that was posted before shows clearly that those who are benefiting in between are fewer than they were pre-1975.

But hey, there are more shiny things, so everything is hunky-dory for sure. Very Happy

Interesting article here: Gilded Age II is upon us.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 08:11 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Interesting article here: Gilded Age II is upon us.


Aye, there will be a reset sooner or later. There has to be. Trickle up economics is getting too obvious.

It's all just a bit shit really.

90‰ inheritance tax over adjusted two million with predeath distribution of assets liable to seizure of more? All too tough to really implement but it is the generational aggregation of wealth that bites, not self earned wealth.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:46 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Capitalism creates crap that the sheeple think they need, like electronic handbrakes. Rolling Eyes

Prove me wrong by smashing your screen.

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
How do you define benefit?

Prove me wrong by smashing your screen.


Sun Wukong wrote:
As a household, my family has paid

Is your dad bigger than my dad?

Sun Wukong wrote:
And I suspect I've done more for net world happiness already than you have

Such as?

Sun Wukong wrote:
I am doing a Masters to put myself in a position to help with food security crises

Such as?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
Capitalism creates crap that the sheeple think they need, like electronic handbrakes. Rolling Eyes

Prove me wrong by smashing your screen.

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
How do you define benefit?

Prove me wrong by smashing your screen.


Sun Wukong wrote:
As a household, my family has paid

Is your dad bigger than my dad?

Sun Wukong wrote:
And I suspect I've done more for net world happiness already than you have

Such as?

Sun Wukong wrote:
I am doing a Masters to put myself in a position to help with food security crises

Such as?



You're going deep intp ISIS72 territory there.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


Sun Wukong wrote:
As a household, my family has paid

Is your dad bigger than my dad?

Sun Wukong wrote:
And I suspect I've done more for net world happiness already than you have

Such as?

Sun Wukong wrote:
I am doing a Masters to put myself in a position to help with food security crises

Such as?


Thumbs UpThumbs UpMr. Green
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
You're going deep intp ISIS72 territory there.

Well, nobody's entirely bad - Hitler gave nice dinner parties.

Eh, it smacks of the #Occupy commies smashing the capitalist imperialist power structure by tweeting and posting YouTube videos from their iPhones.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 11:29 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


Eh, it smacks of the #Occupy commies smashing the capitalist imperialist power structure by tweeting and posting YouTube videos from their iPhones.


Planned Obsolescence, innit

A friend of mine made a very cogent point recently. We only have advertising for shit products, the rest sell themselves.

Look at how much advertising we have. Assume all of these products are merely competing for limited market share in nearly identical products and services.

As someone else said in this thread, the issue is consumption capitalism. The system is currently running so as to maximise consumer purchasing, and keep the money circulating.

None of this stuff is necessary. Christmas, Halloween, Birthdays... all excuses for utter shite. Fidget spinners. Yoyos. Kim Kardashian.

All stuff pushed in to your brain to make you feel a lack unless you have it, so that someone else can have some of your fun coupons after the government has had its tithe.

Great, except the system is predicated on the assumption of infinite resources, which are being used up as they are considered "non-scarce"... but it's ok, when they become scarce we will just substitute to a new one... Rolling Eyes

Hence my comment about technology.

We can use up all the finite supply of phosphorous, because technology will save us.
Same with antibiotic resistance (considered an input), when we squander them producing cheap meat to satisfy high demand... technology will find new ones.

It is insulting once you understand the underlying mechanisms. Really.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
The system is currently running so as to maximise consumer purchasing, and keep the money circulating.

It's running pretty well, isn't it?


Sun Wukong wrote:
None of this stuff is necessary.

You mean, except for the stuff that you have, right?

What could you do to put some meaning behind your words?


Sun Wukong wrote:
We can use up all the finite supply of phosphorous, because technology will save us.

Wait, we're transmuting the element? Shocked

If we can mine it, we can recycle it.


Sun Wukong wrote:
Same with antibiotic resistance

Well, in the sense of being totally different. And I completely agree with you on that one.


Sun Wukong wrote:
It is insulting once you understand the underlying mechanisms. Really.

Did you read about them on an iPhone?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 28 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly didn't look into the Mensch fallacy when I mentioned it earlier.

Here's a more digestible version: Louise Mensch Displaying Her Critical Faculties On HIGNFY - she even uses your favourite 'iPhone' example Wink
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