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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:57 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
[I put my faith in science]

I'm hoping that we'll move past lithium into irony based batteries.


Sun Wukong wrote:
I should join Borgey on the good-ship-climate-change-denial, the parties have better catering.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Surf_and_turf_(1).JPG


It's OK - the green stuff's just for decoration.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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Joined: 09 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
[
Not going to happen. 100 years of development, the most remarkable century of innovation and still no solution. It's a dead end.


Really? I'm just thinking about the last 10 years and there's been massive improvements. We're not there yet, granted, but there is still huge progress.

Take phones as an example. '80's phone had a battery the size of a brick. They provided sufficient power for a couple of hours call time and to power a two line black and green screen.

Fast forwards to the 90's...

Lithium-based batteries with capabilities which suit phones and laptops perhaps, but they're not matching ICEs for range or convenience. Subsequent small improvements in efficiencies have come from improved manufacturing techniques (fewer contaminants, for example) and we haven't seen a whole new class of battery chemistries open up. Currently the best we have, but they've peaked with respect to electric vehicles.
asta1 wrote:
we're only talking another 30 years before a £500 battery will do 500miles and charge in 30mins.

Probably been said in every decade of the aforementioned century of development.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

we haven't seen a whole new class of battery chemistries open up. Currently the best we have, but they've peaked with respect to electric


I'd say LiPo was the new chemistry, I remember my old nokia brick phones with NiCd cells.

I would agree though, LiPo probably isn't the ideal solution for vehicle uses, it's a touch volatile if you split the cells for instance and you don't get that many charge/discharge cycles out of them.

That being said, there hasn't really been much of a drive to innovate batteries for that purpose until the last 10 years or so, not compared to phones or laptops anyway.

It'll be interesting to see how things pick up now there is starting to be commitment from manufacturers to make these vehicles.

Certainly ICE efficiencies and performances for 'road' vehicles seem to be leveling off, so it's not unreasonable to think that electric cars could supersede the combustion tech reasonably soon
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
How do you charge all these batteries that power these wonderful electric cars? Do all those now needed GigaWatts of that that electrickery stuff appear by magic at the charging stations? In the old days it used to be made by burning gas, oil, even coal at these things called power stations, but I'm sure nowadays it will all be powered by those solar cells on the rooves of chavvy council estates and the power of ever-so-green wishful thinking.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
ThoughtControl wrote:
Do all those now needed GigaWatts of that that electrickery stuff appear by magic at the charging stations?

I told you, you just pass a law.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nah, they'll use the ever so safe nuclear power, and dump the waste into land and make it dangerous for 000s of years. But it's green and clean, because no CO emissions.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
God I wish people would stop demonising nuclear power.

No, let's chase the red herring of renewables. Far better.

Battery tech is getting better and better due to e-bike use, and the growing leisure use of them.

Better intercity transport options and we wouldn't need such hench batteries anyway.

Will be interesting to see who brings out the first hybrid/full electric sports motorcycle Laughing

The scary thing about electric vehicles is they are silent. Used to hate the things in China, whipping around footpaths being driven by imbeciles.
But correctly regulated they would be awesome Thumbs Up
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Itchy
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Nah, they'll use the ever so safe nuclear power, and dump the waste into land and make it dangerous for 000s of years. But it's green and clean, because no CO emissions.



No the trick is to dump nuclear waste on OTHER people.

Don't you remember years and years ago? Sellafield or whatever they rebranded it opened a nuclear waste processing plant. Once the waste was shipped to the UK they refused to take it back.

It's a post brexit opportunity!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sun Wukong wrote:


The scary thing about electric vehicles is they are silent



No they are not. You are failing to account for the person on it shouting into his or her mobile phone.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sun Wukong wrote:
Battery tech is getting better and better due to e-bike use, and the growing leisure use of them.

No.
Wink
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 16 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Nah, they'll use the ever so safe nuclear power, and dump the waste into land and make it dangerous for 000s of years. But it's green and clean, because no CO emissions.



No the trick is to dump nuclear waste on OTHER people.

Don't you remember years and years ago? Sellafield or whatever they rebranded it opened a nuclear waste processing plant. Once the waste was shipped to the UK they refused to take it back.

It's a post brexit opportunity!


I know, we keep it for the French I believe.
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Falco
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Joined: 27 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: 02:16 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Falco wrote:
So in terms of power generation electric cars are a tiny bit better for the environment whilst not being as practical, capable, convenient.

FTFY.


That's a strange definition of fix. Injecting wild conjecture and personal opinion into an answer that is already caveated doesn't really constitute a fix in my book.

In terms of raw emissions per unit of energy generated they are broadly comparable. However this is such a reductive way of looking at it that it borders on being entirely nonsensical. You haven't taken into account efficiency of generation, heat wastage, Production/refinement of fuel, transport of fuel, type of fuel used, efficiencies of scale etc. etc.

As for practical, convenient and capable? Not for you maybe, but surprisingly, not everyone has your use case for an electric vehicle.

Sun Wukong wrote:
God I wish people would stop demonising nuclear power.


I'm not against nuclear power. It has a lot of potential, but...that ship has sailed. The market killed it, nuclear power can't be generated at anything approaching a competitive price, due to various problems like how long it takes to prepare the site, decommission the site, dispose of waste ect. If nuclear could actually stand on it's own 2 feet without need huge subsidies it might stand a chance, but not as it currently is.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:55 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could power the UK for a year with a living room's size worth of nuclear fuel - fuel which is quite abundant thus far.

Any 'market' related problems are entirely due to red tape, lobbying and ulterior-motivated fearmongering.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:59 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
ThoughtControl wrote:
How do you charge all these batteries that power these wonderful electric cars? Do all those now needed GigaWatts of that that electrickery stuff appear by magic at the charging stations? In the old days it used to be made by burning gas, oil, even coal at these things called power stations, but I'm sure nowadays it will all be powered by those solar cells on the rooves of chavvy council estates and the power of ever-so-green wishful thinking.


"Electric vehicles are a bad idea because they will still absolutely definitely always use fossil fuel power forever and ever amen."

Thought you were wiser than that.
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 07:10 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
So they are to be powered by Percy Power, the power of positive thought and good feelings, and the world of could, and that's why we should get all excited.

We're getting off our dependence of limited resource of "fossil" fuels, and instead to become dependent on lithium and other "rare earth" minerals. I'm sure this will herald in the era of world peace and other good feels now we don't have to go to war over that horrible oil stuff. I'll get my acoustic guitar and start singing Kumbaya.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 07:22 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
ThoughtControl wrote:
So they are to be powered by Percy Power, the power of positive thought and good feelings, and the world of could, and that's why we should get all excited.

We're getting off our dependence of limited resource of "fossil" fuels, and instead to become dependent on lithium and other "rare earth" minerals. I'm sure this will herald in the era of world peace and other good feels now we don't have to go to war over that horrible oil stuff. I'll get my acoustic guitar and start singing Kumbaya.


If electric cars come first you claim it's pointless because fossil fuels still make all the power.

I suppose if nuke plants and the renewable stuff came first you'd claim it's pointless because there are still so many oil-powered cars around causing all the problems.

You're trying to suggest it's a no-win situation where the best and only option is to sit and do nothing. Nonsense Thumbs Up
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 08:54 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tesla unveils electric truck.

And for the joy of fairness in promotion, here's this snippet from the end of the article:

Quote:
Competition in the electric truck market has been heating up. In September, Daimler AG announced the delivery of its first electric trucks to the United Parcel Service (UPS). Other companies working on electric trucks include Volkswagen, Cummins and Nikola.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nuclear powered trucks. You know it makes sense.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 09:37 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Nuclear powered trucks. You know it makes sense.


That's our point... Directly or indirectly powered is the question.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:36 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


Far too many people think electricity is free. My brother in law has bought a rather expensive Volvo XC90 hybrid which can run on electric only. His electric bill has risen by around £90 a month at home, not much less than they used to spend on diesel on the old version - they only do low mileage, dropping the kids off at football etc.


So fuel is electric, and costs a bit less than the diesel. That's a win then.

The millions and millions of batteries is about as much of an issue as the millions and millions and millions of car tyres which nobody cares even half as much about.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
The millions and millions of batteries is about as much of an issue as the millions and millions and millions of car tyres which nobody cares even half as much about.

If we already have pollution, then adding more pollution isn't a problem, you say?
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ThoughtContro...
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Joined: 14 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
So fuel is electric, and costs a bit less than the diesel. That's a win then.

The millions and millions of batteries is about as much of an issue as the millions and millions and millions of car tyres which nobody cares even half as much about.


When you add the monthly cost of the batteries it's a huge loss. It's good to know that we can all forget about tyres. We've just doubled our recycling, or more likely landfill problem. It will probably go to some third world shithole or if we've dropped to third world status by then it can stay here or we can ship it to Swedish Caliphate.

While we're on waste, what are we going to be doing about the extra nuclear waste that is generated, the stuff with a half life of a billion years?

The whole thing is a boondongle. At least hydrogen as a storage and power mechanism made more sense or even the concept of hydrogen fuel cells, a pie in the sky proposal from over 20 years ago. Electric cars as proposed to be forcibly introduced just sounds insane, but in the modern western liberal world of 40+ genders as a social construct, it's no more insane than everything else.
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
The millions and millions of batteries is about as much of an issue as the millions and millions and millions of car tyres which nobody cares even half as much about.

If we already have pollution, then adding more pollution isn't a problem, you say?


It just disappears. Get with the new maths Borg old chap. 2+2 = 2, because the old 2 doesn't exist, forget about it. Are you some sort of denier?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 17 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
The millions and millions of batteries is about as much of an issue as the millions and millions and millions of car tyres which nobody cares even half as much about.

If we already have pollution, then adding more pollution isn't a problem, you say?


Excess waste and pollution aren't the same thing - unless used batteries emit greenhouse gases too?
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