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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 19 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
the surroundings of certain coal plants in the USA were found to be more radioactive than comparable nuclear power plant areas.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/
They were comparatively blithe about air pollution from fossil fuels in 1978 but the nuclear material was shielded, so not really a fair comparison, and the radiation levels were still only a fraction of the natural background levels.

Amusing how the Greens have switched sides over nuclear power when it's just as dangerous as it always was. I guess they now balance the hazard against the risk and consider fossil fuels worse.

jjdugen wrote:
Hydrogen keeps getting a mention... and then being ignored. It is the ONLY energy source that ticks ALL the boxes,

Hardly ALL the boxes. Same problems actually. It takes more energy to isolate pure hydrogen than it will yield as a fuel and it is hard to store and transport.

jjdugen wrote:
-just as developing the (bloody) nuclear bomb took a hefty slice of the US budget, surely that kind of effort would find an economical way of cracking the stuff?

Wartime expenses.
https://www.brookings.edu/the-costs-of-the-manhattan-project/
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Hydrogen [...] is the ONLY energy source

Where would I find a hydrogen mine?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:56 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
jjdugen wrote:
Hydrogen [...] is the ONLY energy source

Where would I find a hydrogen mine?


The sea. Same place as the uranium mine I'd need. More info here.

I reckon the problem with hydrogen is that it's a gas. Seems a bit leaky and explodey to me. Hindenburg sort of stuff. Though I may just be getting hysterical and overly negative because I know nothing of the modern engineering advances that have been seen in hydrogen usage over the past few decades - much like the anti-nuclear folk.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:17 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
The sea. Same place as the uranium mine I'd need. More info here.

Did you just disengenuate me? Shocked

When we can show that a closed "renewables" system is capable of being self sustaining, including powering the lives of all the people involved, I'll be interested. Until then, I'm calling it greenwashing of fossil energy.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


When we can show that a closed "renewables" system is capable of being self sustaining, including powering the lives of all the people involved, I'll be interested. Until then, I'm calling it greenwashing of fossil energy.


Well the book which I've been harping on about in my past few posts seems to think modern society can't be 100% renewable, specially not in the northern latitudes. For example the UK would need a solar panel farm the size of Wales, placed in the Sahara, if full energy needs are to be met by that method. Being more realistic and focusing only on renewable options in the UK itself, the requirement would still be huge - wind farms all over, hydro power all over Scotland and Wales, Severn estuary barrage, etc. There'd also need to be a lot of rules telling people to turn the off lights, only shower for 5 minutes, don't use the TV for more than 1 hour per day, etc. Possible but unlikely, given the human desire for luxury and choice.


The facts really are laid clear in the text. Maybe not super soon but, unless we all reduce our power consumption by about 60%, nuclear will be humanity's main source of energy eventually.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
For example the UK would need a solar panel farm the size of Wales, placed in the Sahara, if full energy needs are to be met by that method.

Plus storage, and that's assuming that they've factored in the energy costs of mining, refining, manufacture and replacement. Then it goes snackbar and we all die.

Fusion or bust.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
nuclear will be humanity's main source of energy eventually.


What about all the People "We've" decided cannot develop nuclear technologies?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
What about all the People "We've" decided cannot develop nuclear technologies?

They'll move here and get a free house and free monies.

It's OK, we'll pass a law.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 11:51 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
What about all the People "We've" decided cannot develop nuclear technologies?


With great power comes great responsibility. Besides, those countries are prime solar power farming regions so why
would they invest white guilt money money on nuclear powerstations? All I know is if the UK was a boiling hot dustbowl,
we wouldn't be sitting around on our arses waiting for someone else to bail us out, we'd find a way to harness and then sell
the (free) energy provided by the sun.

lost cause
noun
noun: lost cause; plural noun: lost causes
a person or thing that can no longer hope to succeed or be changed for the better.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
Besides, those countries are prime solar power farming regions so why would they invest white guilt money money on nuclear powerstations?

Because they want power that's actually reliable?

Saudi Arabia has made a token swing at solar, but is now going mad for nukes:

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-o-s/saudi-arabia.aspx
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:23 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

convenient nuclear waste video by wendover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU3kLBo_ruo
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
grr666 wrote:
Besides, those countries are prime solar power farming regions so why would they invest white guilt money money on nuclear powerstations?

Because they want power that's actually reliable?

Saudi Arabia has made a token swing at solar, but is now going mad for nukes:

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-o-s/saudi-arabia.aspx


Is that not more likely to be related to the want for nuke weapons for safety? (No, I haven't read your link).

But Mr World Poleece, Iran is developing them...
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
they see investing in solar energy as a way to remain a global oil power.

The Saudis burn about a quarter of the oil they produce—and their domestic consumption has been rising at an alarming 7 percent a year, nearly three times the rate of population growth. According to a widely read December 2011 report by Chatham House, a British think tank, if this trend continues, domestic consumption could eat into Saudi oil exports by 2021 and render the kingdom a net oil importer by 2038.

That outcome would be cataclysmic for Saudi Arabia. The kingdom’s political stability has long rested on the “ruling bargain,” whereby the royal family provides citizens, who pay no personal income taxes, with extensive social services funded by oil exports. Left unchecked, domestic consumption could also limit the nation’s ability to moderate global oil prices through its swing reserve—the extra petroleum it can pump to meet spikes in global demand. If Saudi rulers want to maintain control at home and preserve their power on the world stage, they must find a way to use less oil.

Solar, they have decided, is an obvious alternative.

And latterly, nuclear too, I guess.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/saudis-solar-energy/395315/
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to trigger Borgy.

Trumpence's new appointment.

Aye Carumba
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:

She disagrees with the climate alarmism industry, you say? She rejects its ever changing premise, its constantly "corrected" figures, and doesn't keep abreast of its imagined crisis of the moment?

Then compost the witch, I guess. The fear and the dollah must flow.

Full marks for the editing and incidental music though, very emotionally persuasive. Thumbs Up
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Falco
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
She rejects its ever changing premise,
Ah yes, good thing the idea of humans influencing the climate hasn't been around since the turn of the 20th century. Besides, it was proposed by Arrhenius, who might have been the father of modern physical chemistry, but was also clearly a liberal cuck and can thus be safely dismissed.

Rogerborg wrote:
its constantly "corrected" figures
Rolling Eyes Right, because if it turns out there was a systemic error in your measurements due to orbital decay of the measuring satellites correcting this error is clearly a cover-up/conspiracy/liberal plot. Once a measurement has been made it should never be changed, even if it turns out to be wrong we should continue to use it, in case a group of people who don't understand what is happening take offence to it Brick Wall
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 09:17 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something to consider.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5138252/
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The premise to which I am referring is: OMFG things will be different tomorrow than they were yesterday! All change is death! Fear! Panic! We're all gunna dieeeeeeeee. Unless you fund my research / quango / fantasy ecotec to the tune of uncounted billions.

And no, once a measurement has been taken, the recorded number should never be changed. You can try and do better in future, you can explain why you think it might have been inaccurate, but if you start "correcting" the actual number based on finger-in-the-air supposition then why even go through the pretence of taking it in the first place? Just make up whatever number suits your agenda.

Oh, they did.


jjdugen wrote:

Nah, too long term to be a proper fear! Panic! Fund us!

What we should genuinely be preparing for is surviving a coronal mass ejection. At the moment I'm not really seeing how we would. I mean, how would I even correct all the wrongness on the internets?
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Falco
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PostPosted: 22:11 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The premise to which I am referring is: OMFG things will be different tomorrow than they were yesterday! All change is death! Fear! Panic! We're all gunna dieeeeeeeee. Unless you fund my research / quango / fantasy ecotec to the tune of uncounted billions.


Who, precisely, did you have in mind? I've seen this line in plenty of news papers, not so much from the scientific community.

Rogerborg wrote:
And no, once a measurement has been taken, the recorded number should never be changed. You can try and do better in future, you can explain why you think it might have been inaccurate, but if you start "correcting" the actual number based on finger-in-the-air supposition then why even go through the pretence of taking it in the first place? Just make up whatever number suits your agenda.

Oh, they did.


Good thing that didn't happen then, isn't it. If they are attempting to hide the original figures, including them in the paper, along with the corrected versions seems rather counter productive.

The corrected measurements supersede the originals, they do not replace them. It's right there in the paper.

Someone is making things up, but it's not the paper's authors....
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falco wrote:
Who, precisely, did you have in mind? I've seen this line in plenty of news papers, not so much from the scientific community.

Anyone who makes a living from screeching that we're all going to die from (in approximately reverse order):

Deoxygenation.
Global warming.
Acid rain.
Deforestation.
Global cooling.
Rock and roll.
Communism (might have a point there).
Hitler (granted, there was a good run going for a while).
Flappers.
Wombyn's suffrage.
The demon alcohol.
Cocaine niggers.
Onanism.
The French.
Witches.
The plague.
The mahometans (these things come around).
The French again (Danish version).
The Danes.
Original Sin.
The Eyeties.
Goblins.

All good cash bonanzas for those pushing the problem and selling charms, cantrips and "Trust me, I'm a scientician / statesman / priest / God King" solutions.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Falco wrote:
Who, precisely, did you have in mind? I've seen this line in plenty of news papers, not so much from the scientific community.

Anyone who makes a living from screeching that we're all going to die from (in approximately reverse order):

Deoxygenation.
Global warming.
Acid rain.
Deforestation.
Global cooling.
Rock and roll.
Communism (might have a point there).
Hitler (granted, there was a good run going for a while).
Flappers.
Wombyn's suffrage.
The demon alcohol.
Cocaine niggers.
Onanism.
The French.
Witches.
The plague.
The mahometans (these things come around).
The French again (Danish version).
The Danes.
Original Sin.
The Eyeties.
Goblins.

All good cash bonanzas for those pushing the problem and selling charms, cantrips and "Trust me, I'm a scientician / statesman / priest / God King" solutions.


Who specifically? I ask because you said
Rogerborg wrote:
We're all gunna dieeeeeeeee. Unless you fund my research / quango / fantasy ecotec to the tune of uncounted billions.
.

Who is saying this? Are they writing newspaper editorials? Blogs? YouTube V-Log channels? Can you show me anyone who I should care about saying it? Because I find it hard to get a good rage boner from individual punditry from those who know feck all about this stuff and wouldn't know statistical significance if it stole their car keys, shived them and then claimed to be at home nursing their sick old granny.

Or does this claim hold as much water (geddit!?!?!?!) as the supposed alteration of climate data claim?
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falco wrote:

Who is saying this?


The entire industry of Climate Change research and solutions, the US alone spent 106.7 billion between 2003 and 2010 on research and technology tro address the problems that research put forth, and for what gain? a graph that still shows temperatures rising and some dire predictions of the effects of this which gently drift a decade or two into the future every time the Ice sheets grows back again.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2011/08/23/the-alarming-cost-of-climate-change-hysteria/#d311dd57ebbe

You can demand individual names, but the Data shows it's become an industry, as evidenced by all the useless wind turbines thrown up on government grants for no real benefit. And it sustains itself on doom mongering, Scientists like steady well funded employment too you know.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falco wrote:
Who is saying this?

Sadly, there no handy hit list of climate alarmists, but just to get the ball rolling, I'll throw out:

Al Gore.
Elon Musk.
James Hansen.
David Suzuki.
Michael Mann.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 07:00 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
it's become an industry, as evidenced by all the useless wind turbines thrown up on government grants for no real benefit


Er what. 10% of UK power comes from wind farms and is the cheapest energy source in the UK.

Compare that with 1% from hydro power, yet I see nobody getting in a tizz over the number of useless damming projects over the decades.

Quote:

. And it sustains itself on doom mongering, Scientists like steady well funded employment too you know.


Right so if climate science were to find a large enough set of statistics to prove its previous predictions wrong, the entire act of doing climate science would stop happening and everyone would lose their jobs because climate science is only worth funding if it pushes a doomsday scenario... so that's the one and only reason why the global warming narrative is being pushed. Got it, thanks!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
climate science is only worth funding if it pushes a doomsday scenario

Try not to be so extremist, you Nazi. See Judith Curry's points that there are real financial and career consequences for not proselyting the alarmist message enthusiastically enough.

As an... academic... you must surely know that everyone is competing for the same pot of funding. In climate... science... it appears that the lions's share is going to those who shriek the loudest.

Science isn't unbiased if you excommunicate and starve out the dissenting voices. It becomes religion in white coats.
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Old Thread Alert!

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