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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 09:45 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Try not to be so extremist, you Nazi. See Judith Curry's points that there are real financial and career consequences for not proselyting the alarmist message enthusiastically enough.

As an... academic... you must surely know that everyone is competing for the same pot of funding. In climate... science... it appears that the lions's share is going to those who shriek the loudest.

Science isn't unbiased if you excommunicate and starve out the dissenting voices. It becomes religion in white coats.


As an armchair... opinionist... your firm beliefs are quite funny.

Funny how you ignore the much more perverse attempts to discredit climate change research, for much larger and more selfish profit motives.

Also funny how little you think of academia, claiming all funding comes from the same pot and that it has an odd bias toward anything that says the earth is getting warmer Confused . Aside from the huge scope and variety of research councils and their associated grant availability... Do you know what peer review is? There's a huge number of ways in which incorrect, anomalous or downright fabricated results could and would be called out. I notice all calling out seems to be done by armchair... opinionists... Wink . Strange, that is Thinking

I don't understand what point you're trying to make about Judith Curry either. Instead of a single messiah figure who said a few sentences that resonate with those who'll take anything that allows them to continue believing it's all a lie, I would prefer to go with the combined scientific efforts of humanity over the past 100 years and listen to what's been said so far. This method has worked in most other areas, bar perhaps the nuclear bomb. Strange how it's only climate science being accused of fakery. I guess every society needs its witch hunt.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Monkeywrencher wrote:
it's become an industry, as evidenced by all the useless wind turbines thrown up on government grants for no real benefit


Er what. 10% of UK power comes from wind farms and is the cheapest energy source in the UK.

Compare that with 1% from hydro power, yet I see nobody getting in a tizz over the number of useless damming projects over the decades.



doesn't provide 10% consistantly though does it? so what do we do in case the wind speed drops and output varies? we need to run other power stations in less efficient modes ready to take up the slack, possibly negating the savings from wind all together.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9559656/Germanys-wind-power-chaos-should-be-a-warning-to-the-UK.html

100% reliance on power generation which is at the whim of an unpredictable environment is a pipe dream without huge overgeneration when it's possible and vast storage capacity.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:14 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Aside from the huge scope and variety of research councils and their associated grant availability...

Can you name three grants available to climate rationalists?


Lord Percy wrote:
Do you know what peer review is?

Honoured more in the breach than the observance these days. Sad

Lord Percy wrote:
I notice all calling out seems to be done by armchair... opinionists...

I have a standing desk, so your premise, like the constantly "corrected" historical temperature measurements, is flawed.

Lord Percy wrote:
I don't understand what point you're trying to make about Judith Curry either.

That she's had a lot of peer reviewed papers published. I understand that some... academics... put their blind faith in those.

You know what an exemplar is, right? No, not a money lending knight, it's a representative of a group. Here, since you like lists and think that science should be done by a show of hands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Can you name three grants available to climate rationalists?


No because grants aren't specific amounts doled out to the most popular candidates. Research departments put forward proposals for work they want to do and if it seems useful, feasible or beneficial it gets money chucked at it. Unlike the climate denial lobby, academic research funding councils don't set aside money specifically for climate change scientists to push an agenda. Research funding councils have absolutely nothing to gain from favouring any particular kind of project.

I'd be interested to see figures for this, but I'd be willing to suggest climate change research in fact gets less funding than it ought to simply because it's in the public eye so it receives more scrutiny. It has to be publicly funded, after all, seeing as it's a non-productive pursuit. But let's all carry on believing it's a gravy train for Fake Sciencers.

I think the mistake you're making is that you assume the high level of media attention it gets means that anything related to global warming must get more money too. This may be a quite crazy suggestion but perhaps the media attention is a result of the research (and the mounting evidence it has provided), rather than the other way around.

Quote:

Here, since you like lists and think that science should be done by a show of hands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming


My list is bigger than your list ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Can you name three grants available to climate rationalists?

No

Edited for brevity.

Lord Percy wrote:
My list is bigger than your list ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In the context of your admission above, why do you think there might be more... scientists... willing to shriek for their supper than to gamble their careers on saying "But why don't your hypotheses, models and conclusion change when your predictions are wrong over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?"
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:


doesn't provide 10% consistantly though does it?


No, it provided 17% last December.

Quote:
so what do we do in case the wind speed drops and output varies?


You answered this one yourself Very Happy

Quote:
we need to run other power stations in less efficient modes ready to take up the slack,


and about your next comment...

Quote:


Tesla to the rescue. Very Happy

Quote:
100% reliance on power generation which is at the whim of an unpredictable environment is a pipe dream without huge overgeneration when it's possible and vast storage capacity.


Planetary air circulation is pretty well understood and it won't be changing in any way unless the earth starts spinning in a different direction. Combined with improvement in mass electrical energy storage (a budding energy technology with tons of room for growth and improvement), it seems perfectly logical to make use of as much of this air movement as possible.

Funnily enough, the one thing that could have adverse effects on wind power is global warming. A weaker temperature gradient between the equator and the poles (a result of ice caps melting) would mean slower convection of heat/air and, therefore, less powerful winds.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:

No

Edited for brevity.


Here's my answer again which I hope you'll read this time.

Quote:
No because grants aren't specific amounts doled out to the most popular candidates. Research departments put forward proposals for work they want to do and if it seems useful, feasible or beneficial it gets money chucked at it. Unlike the climate denial lobby, academic research funding councils don't set aside money specifically for climate change scientists to push an agenda. Research funding councils have absolutely nothing to gain from favouring any particular kind of project.

I'd be interested to see figures for this, but I'd be willing to suggest climate change research in fact gets less funding than it ought to simply because it's in the public eye so it receives more scrutiny. It has to be publicly funded, after all, seeing as it's a non-productive pursuit. But let's all carry on believing it's a gravy train for Fake Sciencers.

I think the mistake you're making is that you assume the high level of media attention it gets means that anything related to global warming must get more money too. This may be a quite crazy suggestion but perhaps the media attention is a result of the research (and the mounting evidence it has provided), rather than the other way around.


You should be happy that there isn't a specific grant for people who want to research climate science. Can you find one? This task should be on you really. I don't care either way. There are grants for all sorts already. I highly doubt there are any more or less for projects that push the supposed climate change agenda and keep people in jobs. I say again - funding and grants councils have nothing to gain from any of this.

Edit: My bad. When you said rationalist I thought you meant the bog standard garden variety of scientists, rather than a specific source of funding for those who want to go against the grain. The above points still stand anyway. Nothing is to be lost or gained when money is handed out to research groups. Well, one thing is gained. Research and its results.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
You should be happy that there isn't a specific grant for people who want to research climate science.

They don't exist and they're down 40% this year.

I guess the alarmism market is suffering from over-supply.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

I have a standing desk


Shocked

You're lower down the pecking order than I imagined.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

I have a standing desk

Shocked You're lower down the pecking order than I imagined.

Comfort is for the masses. Only us alphas can demand discomfort.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Comfort is for the masses. Only us alphas can demand discomfort.


Yes, I can see you getting on well with Bodytard Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:04 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Comfort is for the masses. Only us alphas can demand discomfort.

Yes, I can see you getting on well with Bodytard Laughing

Tish, I still possess a surprising number of my own teeth.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 04:26 - 02 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
Falco wrote:

Who is saying this?


The entire industry of Climate Change research and solutions, the US alone spent 106.7 billion between 2003 and 2010 on research and technology tro address the problems that research put forth, and for what gain? a graph that still shows temperatures rising and some dire predictions of the effects of this which gently drift a decade or two into the future every time the Ice sheets grows back again.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2011/08/23/the-alarming-cost-of-climate-change-hysteria/#d311dd57ebbe

You can demand individual names, but the Data shows it's become an industry, as evidenced by all the useless wind turbines thrown up on government grants for no real benefit. And it sustains itself on doom mongering, Scientists like steady well funded employment too you know.


What is your point? Yes it costs money to do science and develop new technology, who could have predicted. The predictions change in line with better understanding of the data, this tends to be portrayed as "endlessly changing predictions that never happen" but, if actually looked at, its nothing of the sort.

I don't want names (necessarily) but something a bit more substantial than "an industry" would be nice. Roger tries to oblige, but for some reason places Elon Musk amongst them Confused



Rogerborg wrote:
Can you name three grants available to climate rationalists?


Can you define the term "climate rationalist" without an Orwellian style redefinition of everyday language?

Rogerborg wrote:
Honoured more in the breach than the observance these days.


Is it? I have no direct contact with environmental science, but peer review seems fine elsewhere (more or less...there are ongoing issues with it but they aren't really salient) so I see no reason to believe this wild claim unless you can actually proffer some proof for it.

Rogerborg wrote:
Here, since you like lists and think that science should be done by a show of hands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming


As pointed out, that list pales into insignificance compared to those who do believe it. Scientists aren't magical beings, look at Linus Pauling and his beliefs about cancer and vitamin C.

As a side note, you appear to still be claiming the "corrected" figures as some sort of conspiracy, despite having it pointed out to you that they uncorrected figures are not only available, but in fact are listed in the paper which makes the corrections.

Unfounded claims abound, but not so much from the "mainstream" science.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 02 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falco wrote:
Roger tries to oblige, but for some reason places Elon Musk amongst them Confused

Climate change is the biggest threat that humanity faces this century, except for AI. I keep telling people this. I hate to be Cassandra here, but it’s all fun and games until somebody here loses a fucking eye. This view of [climate change] is shared by almost everyone who’s not crazy in the scientific community.

Falco wrote:
Can you define the term "climate rationalist" without an Orwellian style redefinition of everyday language?

That would be crazy.

But yes: Judith Curry, examplar of.


Falco wrote:
As pointed out, that list pales into insignificance compared to those who do believe it.

Yes, and only crazy outliers believe that the earth orbits the sun.

All... scientists... are of course fungible objective. Even the ones scrabbling over the shrinking pot of money that has been rewarding those who have shrieked the loudest.

By the way, if you read posts passim, you'll find that I do believe that the earth is enjoying a brief warming phase before the next glaciation wipes out most of us.

The issue is whether we should be treating that slight warming as a doom from which only tithing to the tech-priests can preserve us; or welcoming it as an opportunity to open up huge great tracts of land and put desparately needed carbon back into the biosphere.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trololol-lol-lol, lol-lol, lol-lol.

https://i.imgur.com/0yEZyyH.png
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Trololol-lol-lol, lol-lol, lol-lol.

https://i.imgur.com/0yEZyyH.png


Damn those increasingly high energy Rossby waves getting larger and dragging more polar air toward the subtropics.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:57 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Damn those increasingly high energy Rossby waves getting larger and dragging more polar air toward the subtropics.

Gyroscopic precession?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
Damn those increasingly high energy Rossby waves getting larger and dragging more polar air toward the subtropics.

Gyroscopic precession?


Funnily enough it is a result of the planet's rotation.

Therefore Idea Slow the world, fix global warming Thinking
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 01 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, a fine thrusting trollpiece by Dellingpole, pointing out that this Arctic-warming-global-freezing apocalypse happened in 1976 - you remember, the last time the world ended.

Better yet, in the 1970s, climate scienticians declared that the exact same conditions were an indicator of global cooling and a new ice age. Clapping
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doggone
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 01 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tut Tut politically incorrect water
https://scottishsceptic.co.uk/2018/02/28/bbc-newsnight-hit-by-piw-politically-incorrect-water/
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:51 - 11 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now even the Lancet goes full ecotard. Doh!

The Lancet wrote:
The effects of climate change are inextricably entwined with health: ranging from the WHO estimate of 7 million deaths from breathing polluted air indoors and outdoors;

And on in that vein, switching between "climate change" and "air pollution" like a ontological rapist swapping between the front and back door of rhetoric with merry abandon.

Which problem do they want solved? Because poisoning Chinese peasants to produce UK electromobiles that are powered by gas turbines hidden behind idle windfarms is a whole heap of separate boils.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 07:58 - 10 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, about those "idle wind farms".

https://i.imgur.com/cuNtcqu.png

Thank Allan for his gift of fission, and his fossil (so called) fuels, eh? Burning mass deforestation Murcan wood is producing more than solar and wind combined. And note that these pathetic numbers are at 8am on a Sunday morning when demand is at a low.

This has been going on for long about a week now.

We must go nuclear, or frack, or die.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 10 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote for all three. 😁
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 10 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's OK, you just gotta have faith.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 10 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
So, about those "idle wind farms".

https://i.imgur.com/cuNtcqu.png

Thank Allan for his gift of fission, and his fossil (so called) fuels, eh? Burning mass deforestation Murcan wood is producing more than solar and wind combined. And note that these pathetic numbers are at 8am on a Sunday morning when demand is at a low.

This has been going on for long about a week now.

We must go nuclear, or frack, or die.

Nuclear is almost in the red, she cannae take it captain.
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