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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 15:59 - 22 Dec 2016 Post subject: Motor insurance to cover offroad - Vnucked |
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tl;dr version - Slovenian peasant was knocked off a ladder (DANGEROUSE) by a tractor on a farm, got compo knocked back, went to Strasbourg, bawwed, won.
The verdict is that all insurance policies in the EU must cover any use of a vehicle that is consistent with the normal function of that vehicle. They can't be limited to road or public place use as ours are.
Tractors gotta tract, sportsbikes gotta sport, right?
The UK is finally getting around to stitching us up over it, and have launched a "consultation" (nobody laugh):
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/motor-insurance-consideration-of-the-vnuk-judgment
The doomsday scenarios are:
1) An end to all motorsport.
2) All bike insurance policies becoming prohibitively expensive.
3) Sportsbike policies becoming prohibitively expensive (oh noes, Ninja!)
4) All vehicles, including pure offroaders, will need to have insurance.
1 and 2 are probably over-egged. 3, well, they already factor in likely use. I imagine that it'll be another risk factor checkbox, like pillion use (not pillion cover). 4 is a real possibility. Sorry, quadbois.
If you fancy a rant, you can vent your ill-informed spleen online. I find it very cathartic. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 16:59 - 22 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Replied as follows (in precis). Bit's I'm most pleased with in BOLD
Ammended directive. Yes
Comprehensive drective would make things worse in terms of cost and administrative burden.
I have suggested we sunset the fuck out of it, leaving it up to insurers to provide optional "euro cover" as they always used to. Make UK legislation appropriate to the will of the UK population post brexit.
I have responded strongly in favour of adding a "used in traffic" clause so the original intent of the legislation is most accurately represented.
Adding "areas where the public has access in accordance with national law" as an insurance requirement would be unduly onerous in terms of cost and create an insurmountable administrative burden.
I have suggested we derrogate all vehicles not registered for road use.
I have responded that Enforcement in either case should be reactive rather than proactive. So we don't go looking for uninsured vehicles, a penalty would apply if you are involved in an accident for which you ought to have been insured.
NO to register of newly in scope vehicles. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Andy_Pagin |
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Andy_Pagin World Chat Champion
Joined: 08 Nov 2010 Karma :
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 17:13 - 22 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Having a look through the report:
Wow.
I can see it now!
Two dodgems collide.
"Oooo, me back..."
"We better exchange details."
Five weeks later....
Other driver receives documents with doctors reports regarding five cases of whiplash from his friend's and family that were passengers. |
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arry |
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arry Super Spammer
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Karma :
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 11:04 - 27 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Any feelings about which way it's likely to go?
The thing I'm bearing in mind is that more insurance = more insurance tax = more Workfare in Swansea. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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arry |
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arry Super Spammer
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
Joined: 16 May 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 13:24 - 27 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Moving away from doomsday thinking, I'm wondering how much of a financial impact this would actually have for most affected parties. Some changes in policy wording would be required, but in many cases insurance is already in place.
Take a warehouse with forklift trucks. Insurance will already be in place covering the people working there, and probably anyone that has managed to walk in off the street. The site owner still has a responsibility for keeping the people on-site safe, and some of this responsibility will be covered by buying insurance to cover anyone on the site. The legislation will change and affect the wording of the policy to class the forklift trucks as vehicles carrying motor insurance, but the overall risk hasn't changed.
The same goes for a building site or a farm. If someone gets mangled, an insurance policy is (or should be) already in place to protect them.
Some of the domestic changes are new - ride-on lawnmowers and kid's electric cars, but I suspect a comprehensive home insurance policy would already cover them. Keeping a register of vehicles would be difficult. I could probably commit an interesting new crime by important a container of hoverboards and not registering them with DVLA.
The real problem is areas that are currently not insured, where insurance is prohibitive, and people taking part know this and take the risk anyway. Motorsport is the only example that comes to mind, but I assume there are more.
I certainly wouldn't want to own a segway in Bradford right now. |
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thx1138 |
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thx1138 World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Karma :
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Posted: 20:12 - 27 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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I ride off road sometimes. (Most of the pics I post, are on trails, public highways).
Go to a few pay and play places, and the odd event held on friendly farmers land.
Hmm.
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Wonko The Sane |
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Wonko The Sane World Chat Champion
Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 20:52 - 27 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Robby wrote: |
Take a warehouse with forklift trucks. Insurance will already be in place covering the people working there, and probably anyone that has managed to walk in off the street. The site owner still has a responsibility for keeping the people on-site safe, and some of this responsibility will be covered by buying insurance to cover anyone on the site. The legislation will change and affect the wording of the policy to class the forklift trucks as vehicles carrying motor insurance, but the overall risk hasn't changed.
The same goes for a building site or a farm. If someone gets mangled, an insurance policy is (or should be) already in place to protect them.
The real problem is areas that are currently not insured, where insurance is prohibitive, and people taking part know this and take the risk anyway. Motorsport is the only example that comes to mind, but I assume there are more.
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The first two, fork lifts on site and the farm example should both be covered by employer's / public liability insurance, so why has the guy who was injured while working on a farm not claiming on the EU mandated employer's liability insurance?
With motorsport, the teams in the higher levels of motorsport probably have liability insurance in place, it's the lower levels, grass roots and things like goodwood that may suffer as people can't / are unwilling to participate ____________________ Looking to pass your CBT / Bike tests in Bury Lancashire? try www.focusridertraining.co.uk Would recommend.
They're also on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Focus-Rider-Training/196832923734251 |
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Enduro Numpty |
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Enduro Numpty Could Be A Chat Bot
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arry |
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arry Super Spammer
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Karma :
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Posted: 22:08 - 05 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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Wonko The Sane wrote: | Robby wrote: |
The legislation will change and affect the wording of the policy to class the forklift trucks as vehicles carrying motor insurance, but the overall risk hasn't changed.
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The first two, fork lifts on site and the farm example should both be covered by employer's / public liability insurance, so why has the guy who was injured while working on a farm not claiming on the EU mandated employer's liability insurance?
With motorsport, the teams in the higher levels of motorsport probably have liability insurance in place, it's the lower levels, grass roots and things like goodwood that may suffer as people can't / are unwilling to participate |
Not quite. EU Mandated covers there aren't.
Employers Liability is a legal requirement for any business with employees (simplified for ease) but that's under UK Law and a UK certificate gets issued. Specifically it covers UK Domiciled employees only - albeit it does cover them whilst working temporarily abroad, under some policies.
Public Liability policies aren't a legal requirement. They get bought as not many insurers will write EL in isolation so as a direct result, if you need EL then you'll be buying PL too.
However, this is the rub of the Vnuk issue; currently under PL commercial policies exclude specifically any liability in connection with a motor vehicle in situations where compulsory insurance is required. The wording is usually:
but this indemnity shall not apply if, in respect of such liability, compulsory insurance or security is required under any legislation governing the use of the vehicle.
So, if Vnuk case means compulsory insurance is required, then the existing policy wording automatically excludes it.
Now it becomes more complicated, because in order to write motor security, the limits of indemnity need to be much higher than a standard liability policy - ie over ten times higher. The cost of reinsurance for motor liability is therefore, as a result, higher too. The cost of achieving capital and solvency requirements under Solvency II become higher, too. So in effect everything becomes more expensive as a direct result, despite the risk being the same - as the theoretical exposure is higher, because the limit of indemnity is higher, and you need to hold a balance of both capital and appropriate reinsurance to issue the security.
It's not a major world falling in on us moment, but it does require some hefty thought as to a way of finding a workable solution. |
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rhys99 |
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rhys99 Scooby Slapper
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arry |
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arry Super Spammer
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 22:37 - 05 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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I agree, access is the issue, but in most cases if you have genuinely private land to ride on, it should be moot if you make a token attempt to enclose it or put up "Get orf moi laaarnd" signs. Less so in Scotchland, with our communist right-to-roam.
I do wonder exactly at what point in their life vehicles will be required to be covered. If it's from first registration with the DVLA, easy peasy, but that lets all the never-registered offroaders - exactly the vehicles that they need to catch - off the hook.
If it's from the moment that they're extant in the UK, that could stitch up manufacturers, importers and dealers. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 08:39 - 06 Jan 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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rhys99 |
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rhys99 Scooby Slapper
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 08:46 - 06 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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rhys99 wrote: | I was thinking more on private land |
Your driveway is private land, but your postman and neighbours coming to borrow a cup of ketamine do enjoy a general right of access to it.
It is very much an "it depends" issue, and it's not even clear at the moment whether a bike sitting in your driveway should really be insured in case it falls over on Postman Prat.
That said, insurance indemnifies liability. If you're genuinely not using a vehicle at all, it's hard to see where any liability would arise. So if Vnuk forces insurance for all vehicles at all times, regardless of use / not use, it would be overkill.
But if there are exceptions, you can bet every quadboi and pitbiker will tick the "yeah, yeah, mate, not actually being used anywhere, innit" box.
It'll be very interesting to see exactly what sort of a mess we make of it. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 16:59 - 22 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Just got an email through saying they cocked up the consultation website which didn't give me all the questions and could I answer another 13.
Might be worth checking your junkmail if you only answered 14 questions. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 06:41 - 28 Jul 2017 Post subject: |
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No Bike Chat Forums or Nobcat IT Ltd (struck off) responses? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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MCN |
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arry |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 308 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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