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wristjob
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: changing gear? Reply with quote

long ramble there will be a TLDR at the end.
i came to motorbikes late in life.
cars were my love i grew up driving in the 80's with rwd and crap tyres and no speed cams. it was a petrol heads playground in cars that barely went past 120mph.happy days.
then came more money more power sierra cosworths and later jap stuff.
it got to the point where track days cost a set of tyres and disks and pads +petrol it got silly expensive.
then a life line bike engined kit cars.
so in a 500kg car with a fireblade engine,no reverse and no screen i was doing track days for nearly no cost as it didnt wear road tyres and because it was light it didnt need massive brakes.
then one day i thought "if this engine is so good in a car,how good must it be in a bike?"
then did tests and did bikes,now cars are just comfy and warm and performance isnt a consideration.
some of the bike engined car people had "quick shifters" so i thought if you lift off a little wouldnt that do the same task and let you change up without the clutch.
it works.
then when i finaly grew a pair and moved up to bikes clutchless upshifts were b.a.u.
i now can do up and downshifts on my current bike without the clutch,apart from the heavy brake drop 3 or 4 gears in a hurry then the clutch does the work.
now i like to watch youtube stuff and i see lots of riders clutching on upshifts,they also have the headlights on high beam(thats another rant)



so TLDR do most people use the clutch for changing gear?
or is it just for when being rough down the box and maneuvering?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: changing gear? Reply with quote

wristjob wrote:
i thought if you lift off a little wouldnt that do the same task and let you change up without the clutch.
it works.

Oh, you're a lift off merchant? Real bikers upshift while banging it off the the rev limiter.

Next.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do use the clutch 95% of the time. 5% of the time I'm actually having fun in the middle of nowhere and shift gears up without the clutch, then blipping the throttle on downshifts and quite push my luck. Regardless of the motorcycle, I must add.

If done correctly, there is no harm to the actual gearbox, on the upshifts at least. If you have a quick shifter, then you have to be certain it's adjusted correctly. My neighbor had the delay time off and ruined a gearbox in about a year of riding.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: changing gear? Reply with quote

wristjob wrote:
so TLDR do most people use the clutch for changing gear?

Dunno if I count as most people but I do. I need the clutch enough times that it isn't worth doing anything different.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:46 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do clutchless upshifts when I'm not trying to get a pace on, but suspect I'm barely using the clutch on upshifts when giving it some welly a fair bit too, as the dab on the lever seems really quick sometimes.
I can do clutchless downshifts, but usually don't, as I find it a little trickier to get it just nice.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 07:26 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good back story! I'd like to hear more about the rwd spanking days when roads were quiet and cars were cool!

Regards shifting, I think it does also depend on the bike. Eg if your riding a 1000cc smooth torque monster, and short shifting as you ride in a relaxed no hurry manner, clutch or no clutch is fine.

Ride a bike in a hurry, particularly a small cc very peaky machine that'll only pull out of a corner in one gear, then you don't want to miss a gear as you'll be going nowhere. So I'd use clutch just to make sure. Even then you can find yourself in a situation where your still too low in the Rev range, on corner exit and dabbing the clutch gets the engine back into the power band so you can actually accelerate.
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thepuma
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PostPosted: 07:47 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutchless upshifts and clutched down.....although I do have a quickshifter. Laughing
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P.
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PostPosted: 08:45 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the lever for 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 1st. The rest is done without the lever.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 09:43 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.. is the short answer... I prefer to keep the corners on the dogs in the box, and save replacing cush-drives, whilst I am more concerned on the public road, to avoid myopic SMIDSYs, pot holes, cow-slurry and whatever has fallen off the back of a skip-truck in the middle of a bend, than I am saving tenths of a second per... oh, yeah, no 'laps' on a public road, or your riding round in circles! Why on earth would I want to do that? Even on a closed circuit with one-way traffic, St Johns on stand-by, and no GATSO!
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Enduro Numpty
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
No.. is the short answer... I prefer to keep the corners on the dogs in the box, and save replacing cush-drives, whilst I am more concerned on the public road, to avoid myopic SMIDSYs, pot holes, cow-slurry and whatever has fallen off the back of a skip-truck in the middle of a bend, than I am saving tenths of a second per... oh, yeah, no 'laps' on a public road, or your riding round in circles! Why on earth would I want to do that? Even on a closed circuit with one-way traffic, St Johns on stand-by, and no GATSO!


As above.

I can't think of an instance in 40 years on the road where clutchless shifts would have made any difference to anything. Ignored the clutch much of the time when shifting gear when riding enduros but that's about it.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is entirely dependent on my mood and the situation. In general terms, I tend to do clutchless upshifts more often than not (although, like Paddy, not through first to second). Downshifts I tend to use the clutch unless I am really pootling along at lowish revs.

I am also very preciouse about the corners of my dogs and deploy a strategy known as "mechanical sympathy" to protect them. A gearbox doesn't know nor care how the load gets removed to aid a shift - whether through opening the clutch or having a neutral throttle input, unloaded is unloaded. My caveat to this is on downshifts: with an upshift you can unload the gearbox by rolling off the throttle (or interrupting the ignition, whatever). However on a downshift you are often on a closed throttle already and the engine is driving through the wheels (so-call "back torque" or engine braking). This is a load through the gearbox which you can only remove by opening the clutch or rolling on the throttle a touch. The clutchless downshifts I do tend to be if I am bimbling at 30 mph in, say, 4th and want 3rd for a touch more "responsiveness", I'll set the throttle so the gearbox is unloaded and snick it down a gear. All with my left hand casually resting on my thigh or across the tank, y'know, so people watching can see I just did a clutchless downshift.

And all of this is done whilst simultaneously avoiding myopic SMIDSYs, pot holes, cow-slurry and whatever has fallen off the back of a skip-truck in the middle of a bend. I know, right?!
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
I do clutchless upshifts when I'm not trying to get a pace on, but suspect I'm barely using the clutch on upshifts when giving it some welly a fair bit too, as the dab on the lever seems really quick sometimes.
I can do clutchless downshifts, but usually don't, as I find it a little trickier to get it just nice.


Pretty much what Mr Strip says.

Have a look at where the biting point is when starting off and then look at how far you're pulling the lever when changing up on the move.
I've noticed I'm barely pulling the lever on up shifts, so I suspect, like most people, I'm using clutchless up shifts with out knowing I'm doing it!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:
All with my left hand casually resting on my thigh or across the tank, y'know, so people watching can see I just did a clutchless downshift.

You might as well put your hand on your hip and be a little teapot, given that folk these days will assume you've got one of those Honda-stylee batty-boy DCT boxen.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 11:56 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a new biker reading this thread, what is the benefit of clutchless shifting?
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
As a new biker reading this thread, what is the benefit of clutchless shifting?


In view of what everyone is saying above - speed - but it makes very little difference on potholed gatso'ed UK roads. Smile

However I bring another reason to the table - the reason I dont use the clutch. Cold weather - I try to take my hands off the lovely heated grips as little as possible Smile
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Oneear
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
As a new biker reading this thread, what is the benefit of clutchless shifting?


There's a satisfaction in hitting the sweet point and making the gear change - it's a skill, after all. However, unless the clutch is fucked, or you are racing, then very little in practical terms.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh right cheers, i thought i was missing something/doing something wrong, or been taught wrongly
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
As a new biker reading this thread, what is the benefit of clutchless shifting?

Man Points. Many, many Man Points.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its sometimes useful if your hands and wrists are knackered, but other than that it is something you'll do naturally once you work out where the 'sweet spot' is in the rev range.

Useful for changing up, not so useful for changing down...
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Oneear
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a question then...

Do any of you change gear without using the clutch when driving a car?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
As a new biker reading this thread, what is the benefit of clutchless shifting?


I came to start doing clutchless upshifts because of a dodgy left arm, smashed up in a bike accident years ago. On a long trip, the arm can get quite fatigued, so where it's safe to do so, I'll take my left hand off the bars to rest the arm a bit. That's when I started doing clutchless upshifts.

I've maxed out on man points Laughing
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might wait a few months yet before i try it for myself, but sounds like an interesting/useful technique to learn
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 13:22 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only when I want to shave a 1/10th of a second off my commute.
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1198
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

No clutch steady throttle up and down on the Panigale (q/s both ways) when in the mood for no more reason than it sounds awesome, clutched both ways as a general rule as I'm not sure it does the gearbox any favours despite it being a standard fit.
All other bikes, clutched nearly all the time both ways, just and occasional clutch less up shift.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oneear wrote:
Here's a question then...

Do any of you change gear without using the clutch when driving a car?


Rare im in it tbh. But if I am, and its a long motorway commute yes.

"Normal" driving - I.e. cutting up other cars / not looking out for bikes / not giving way at roundabouts etc - you know... the norm. I wouldnt even consider clutchless shifting in the car.
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