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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 09:12 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Did you read the bit about any of the "Autopilot" crashes recently?

If people are going to give up control, it has to be perfect, or damn near, as people are fickle things.

Is it statistically relevant? There are not many of such cars, therefore every accident is very well reported. It's quite like motorcycling, people say it's dangerous. Not saying it isn't but less people die/get hurt on a motorcycle than in a car, but everyone has this mate, family member who crashed a motorcycle and is now in a wheel chair or the local cemetery. Because for some reason, crashing a car is different and you are in 99% of cases a victim of whatever happened, unless you were under the influence of drugs/alcohol.
By the way, some even say horse riding is even 5 times more dangerous than motorcycling.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

Vehicles restricted to very specific areas, large cities and infrastructure you say?
Thinking

https://railway-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Driverless-BOMBARDIER-INNOVIA-Metro-300-train.jpg


But trains don't work. Too infrequent, too many people required to make it practical to run more frequently. Too expensive. Too many people when they do run.

For me, even discounting the 25 mile journey to a mainline station , and inevitable hour wait for a connecting train it is still cheaper and quicker for me to drive from Cumbria to Edinburgh in a Citroen Dispatch.

Half the problem is speed and frequency of stopping are incompatible with large trains which is what you need for efficiency of cost.

There was a study a while back that recommended converting the railways to guided busways and to run a large number of small, frequent buses/shuttle vehicles which stop on demand. These could easily be autonamous. And electric.
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Last edited by stinkwheel on 11:10 - 20 Nov 2017; edited 1 time in total
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:


But trains don't work. Too infrequent, too many people required to make it practical to run more frequently. Speed and frequency of stopping are incompatible.

There was a study a while back that recommended converting the railways to guided busways and to run a large number of small, frequent buses/shuttle vehicles which stop on demand. These could easily be autonamous.


Don't recall the Docklands Light Railway having drivers ??
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:


Don't recall the Docklands Light Railway having drivers ??


Sorry, not a trainspotter. Was that picture of a specific train? I just saw a train.

Are we talking about something that happens in London? Sorry, that's a foreign country which has no relevance or similarities to the country I live in. I thought we were discussing the use of self driving vehicles in the UK.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
There will be really simple ways to troll these automatic cars and make them misbehave.


I still maintain that any city could be brought to a standstill by two people rolling a beach ball across a road!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:


There was a study a while back that recommended converting the railways to guided busways and to run a large number of small, frequent buses/shuttle vehicles which stop on demand. These could easily be autonamous. And electric.


We had this exact discussion around 2010. IIRC it was a week or so after you met an uppity farmer who claimed you had stressed his sheep and it needed expensive vet fees without revealing you were a veterinarian yourself.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

We had this exact discussion around 2010. IIRC it was a week or so after you met an uppity farmer who claimed you had stressed his sheep and it needed expensive vet fees without revealing you were a veterinarian yourself.


Aye. Except it was the police (4 coppers, two on bikes and two in a car) who, after performing a box-style traffic stop on Hartside pass, were busy trying to huckle me for failure to stop and report (having failed to do me for no insurance) and landed up with egg on their chin.
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G
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way i see it; it's pretty inevitable, with the associated loss of motorcycles. But hopefully associated significantly better automated systems will massively reduce traffic jams and accidents; meaning utilitarian uses of motorcycles are less useful.

However; with increases in processing power and knowledge of the systems and less 'manual' traffic, hopefully it can be pretty safely integrated.
There's option for a bit of a pantopian authoritarian nightmare for those who still have manual control - with every vehicle having multiple cameras and other sensors.

I can see vehicles having their own short-range EV battery, then going for a road-trail style system; quite possibly just pulled in a train, but also possibly to provide electric power from other sources (overheadcables etc).

stinkwheel wrote:

Are we talking about something that happens in London? Sorry, that's a foreign country which has no relevance or similarities to the country I live in. I thought we were discussing the use of self driving vehicles in the UK.

We were - but it sounds like you live in some other country of unimportance Wink.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 20 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go and watch anything by any London vlogger.

Robocars will deal with that how?

Heck, my regular commute would currently be un-navigable by a robocar.

They will remain toys on strictly limited routes because of reality.
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Old Git Racing
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autonomous cars would be at least a 50% improvement over the twats driving now.

OGR
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G
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Go and watch anything by any London vlogger.


Pretty sure that suggestion counts as...
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I suspect if routes are limited; at some point it'll be the manual-control vehicles that find more restrictions are imposed on them.

Possibly push bikes will be saviour of non-automated vehicles - as that's one area that will be hard to restrict or automate.

However; with the progress we've had over the last 10 years (ie you can get some basic stuff like Lane-assist with a Fiesta now!)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
I suspect if routes are limited; at some point it'll be the manual-control vehicles that find more restrictions are imposed on them.

Mmm, especially if the RoboZils are used by our political masters and their funders.


G wrote:
Possibly push bikes will be saviour of non-automated vehicles - as that's one area that will be hard to restrict or automate.

We should probably get chummy with the lycropaths, we're going to have common cause with them.

G wrote:
However; with the progress we've had over the last 10 years (ie you can get some basic stuff like Lane-assist with a Fiesta now!)

Roadworks though. Merging in turn when Cathy Corsa isn't taking turns. Pulling out into congestion when signalled by flashed lights (do not treat as...) or facial expressions. Peds just stepping in front of them because they know that they'll stop.

How deal?
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Did you read the bit about any of the "Autopilot" crashes recently?

If people are going to give up control, it has to be perfect, or damn near, as people are fickle things.

Is it statistically relevant?


It matters not one fucking bit about actual numbers. It matters about perception. If people don't think that autonomous vehicles can deal with normal, everyday driving, then they will not adopt them short of legislation forcing them to.
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G
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Roadworks though. Merging in turn when Cathy Corsa isn't taking turns. Pulling out into congestion when signalled by flashed lights (do not treat as...) or facial expressions. Peds just stepping in front of them because they know that they'll stop.

How deal?

I would expect a lot of that is just processor cycles, storage and possibly more scarily 'experience'.
Also - with lots more cars and lots of opportunity to communicate - I expect regular problems (let's say a tree on the road - we can regulate for wifi enabled smart cones), cars can also communicate with each other ahead of time, possibly avoiding the issue altogether while traffic is routed so as to not over load diversion routes.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pffft, technology, stuff and nonsense.

The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty - a fad.

The ordinary horseless carriage is at present a luxury for the wealthy; and although its price will probably fall in the future, it will never, of course, come into as common use as the bicycle.

Among other findings, the Commission concluded that these new machines could threaten public safety, “hurtling through our streets” at speeds up to 20 miles per hour. Reading the reports, you would conclude that this technology would never catch on – – and, in the interests of the nation, never should.

[All of the above are old articles about horseless carriages - it all sounds very familiar when you hear people talking about electric/autonomous cars]

(Of _COURSE_ autonomous vehicles are going to become mainstream, somewhere between 20~50 years tops. The Waymo technology is awesome - I think Tesla's isn't anywhere near level 5 autonomy, they need to get involved with LiDAR or just use Waymo for this part of their cars)
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Peds just stepping in front of them because they know that they'll stop.

How deal?


Well that will just be resolved by putting tracking chips in all the pedestrians won't it Laughing
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until they invent a computer that can make decisions beyond it's programming they'll never get these cars to survive on city roads.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 18:21 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Until they invent a computer that can make decisions beyond it's programming they'll never get these cars to survive on city roads.


sure you can, just make all vehicles automated.
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G
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PostPosted: 18:31 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Until they invent a computer that can make decisions beyond it's programming they'll never get these cars to survive on city roads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo#Algorithm

'Machine learning' has been around for a good while; though not used massively in practical applications so far I don't think.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:06 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Machine learning means making lots and lots of wrong guesses, then a human tells it when its finally guessed right. How many kittens are you prepared to sacrifice?


Monkeywrencher wrote:
just make all vehicles automated.

That's the end game. Roadworks, pedalists, pedestrians, kittens though.

Reality is a real downer. We should pass a law.
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G
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Machine learning means making lots and lots of wrong guesses, then a human tells it when its finally guessed right. How many kittens are you prepared to sacrifice?

Human drives and robot makes it's choices - any times said choices are different, they can be analysed and used for 'learning'.
Should be able to pretty quickly get many lifetimes worth of human 'learning' into one package.
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SDFarsight
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 things will happen, maybe both at the same time;
1:You can still legally go on the roads with a bike, but you'll have to pay insurance premiums that an 18 yr old boy racer wouldn't touch with a barge poll.

2: I'll be too busy flying my personal drone.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 00:21 - 23 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDFarsight wrote:
2 things will happen, maybe both at the same time;
1:You can still legally go on the roads with a bike, but you'll have to pay insurance premiums that an 18 yr old boy racer wouldn't touch with a barge poll.

2: I'll be too busy flying my personal drone.


Or just remove your number plate and carry on!
Fuzz aren't interested now, their ever dwindling numbers will care even less by then!
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SDFarsight
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PostPosted: 00:35 - 23 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suntan Sid wrote:
SDFarsight wrote:
2 things will happen, maybe both at the same time;
1:You can still legally go on the roads with a bike, but you'll have to pay insurance premiums that an 18 yr old boy racer wouldn't touch with a barge poll.

2: I'll be too busy flying my personal drone.


Or just remove your number plate and carry on!
Fuzz aren't interested now, their ever dwindling numbers will care even less by then!


But the local clan militia which fills the power vacuum might send their rat bikes after me. I don't think I can afford their Protection™ charges or the privatised healthcare. Sad
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 23 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suntan Sid wrote:
Or just remove your number plate and carry on!

Glasgow is threatening to run a ULEZ racket. I've pre-emptively decided that if they ever apply it to my bikes, that'll tilt the risks vs reward equation in favour of simply scoffing at the law.
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