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L.E.D Indicator Issues - halp pl0x.

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NJD
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 21 Nov 2017    Post subject: L.E.D Indicator Issues - halp pl0x. Reply with quote

ZR7S, doubt that matters here.

L.E.D indicators are playing up: the rears keep not working at random times resulting in the front hyper-flashing -- that is, as I understand it, flashing too fast. At first it was the right hand side and then the left and now it can be either side at any time.

I've sprayed some WD-40 on the rear wires and then they work for a bit until, well, they don't.

The fact the rear wheel has kicked up dirt into relatively exposed wires and indicator housing over the year is all I can think of -- it is a mess under there.

To what do I need to do to resolve the issue without wasting endless WD-40?

Indicators appear to be sealed units.
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Tankie
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

clean off the connectors again ,check the earthing points. To stop further problems see if you can run the wiring/connectors through sleeving
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Baffler186
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be first looking at weak connections at the indicators, and at the flasher relay. I doubt the indicators themselves are at fault. This might require stripping back all the connections, so might as well re-solder and heat shrink the lot to rule that out. Is it the stock flasher relay? Maybe get a variable speed relay ordered just in case, I got mine for a fiver.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things sprig to mind here.... first is that an LED indcator will need either an electronic chyrystal timed flasher unit, which will flash blinkers at fixed rate, almost regardless.... so of you have intermittet indies and a fast flash, that suggests you dot have one of them, but an old fashioned electro-mechanical unit that has a sort of flip-flop solenoid turning itself on and off, and is load dependent.

That would normally beg 'balast resistors' to be fitted to after-market LED indis, so they draw the same current.... which rather defeats much point in fitting LED blinkers to my mind..... but also introduces two or more potetially effed up, usually cheap-crimpt or tape and twist connectors to be used in line with the indy.....

Intermittent fault? Check the wires!!!! Especially non original ones, and especially earths.

Many bikes, as standard, have rubber mounted indy stalks, which doesn't give a positive earth to the frame, so they have an earth strap between the indy ad the frame somewhere. These often get corroded or broken, but indies still manage to find adequete earth through the mount bolt, so get omitted when after-market indies fitted.... leading to a rather flakey unreliable and often intermittent connection.....

But Personally, I would rip back and start over, with a chrystal timed flasher unit, that only cost about a fiver from china; the I would pick some 'decent' after market or OEM grade indies, and probably NOT sealed in LED units... possibly conventional tungsten bulb holders, which I 'may' later ft with LED fit bulbs..... but fitted up paying attension to the mount, making sure I gave it a positive earth, and all wires and connectors were 'good'.. soldered connectors, not crimpies, and certainly not cheapo odd-pack crimps fitted with a paid or multi-mal-fuction wire stripper-crimpers or a pair of plain pliers!!!

As they say, Devil is in the Detail....
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 22 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Many bikes, as standard, have rubber mounted indy stalks, which doesn't give a positive earth to the frame, so they have an earth strap between the indy ad the frame somewhere. These often get corroded or broken, but indies still manage to find adequete earth through the mount bolt, so get omitted when after-market indies fitted.... leading to a rather flakey unreliable and often intermittent connection.....


The fuck are you smoking?

Every, and I mean every, set of aftermarket indicators I have ever seen has 2 wires. I have yet to see, even online or in passing, a bike made this side of 1985 that uses a body ground on an indicator.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 00:40 - 23 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I haven't had a chance, yet, to look at it I would say it's probably say to rule out the relay given I've owned the bike for a year and there's been no previous issues: I would have noticed hyper flashing indicators due to wrong relay a lot sooner than this. In terms of a dodgy relay I don't believe that to be the case simply because the fronts work fine and rather it's the rear, on either isde, that goes completely dead at random times -- that is until you spray it with WD40.

Interesting on the connection blocks, probably worth tracing them to unplug and clean.

Whatever it is it's on the rear since it occurs on both sides at random times.

I'll have a dig when weather / time permits (not an urgent one to solve given WD40 works, for now). Thumbs Up
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NJD
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 25 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

[update]

So I've had a look but couldn't figure out how to disconnect the wires from the plug so figured I'd give up -- more so the cold than the task at hand itself -- and ask first before I potato something.

1) Yelow and black on the right hand side is the rear left (as if you were sitting on the bike) and turn into green and yellow then into a black plug.

Grey wires hanging in the air (rear right as if sitting on bike) go into yellow and black and into a silver plug.

https://s2.postimg.org/4vn8enh9l/indi1.jpg

2) As per the photo below you can see the crud in the black plug of which to the naked eye looks like nothing but, I assume, is, or could be, enough to be causing me problems.

https://s2.postimg.org/ajtj5m67d/indi2.jpg

So I need to work out: (a) how to disconnect the wires from plug and (b) what to clean them with, just a rag (eletrical contact cleaner or WD-40 and then ACF-50 afterwards when reconnecting?)?

Also anyone provide answers and edumacatue me on what the blue and red connectors are -- I clearly didn't listen in science.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 25 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The red connectors are crimped butt connectors used for joining cables together. The blue connectors are crimped bullet connectors - the two halves can be separated. I'd have a good look at the quality of the crimping here.

The plug/socket will have a release latch on it somewhere which will either have to be depressed or lifted to get the two halves apart. A close look should tell you which. Thumbs Up
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 25 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They look squashed, not crimped. Somethings probably loose.

Get a decent ratcheting crimp tool and crimps (ebay) and re-do them.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 25 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
The red connectors are crimped butt connectors used for joining cables together. The blue connectors are crimped bullet connectors - the two halves can be separated. I'd have a good look at the quality of the crimping here.


To clarify, separated at the blue part? (don't want to pull at wrong part).

Islander wrote:
The plug/socket will have a release latch on it somewhere which will either have to be depressed or lifted to get the two halves apart. A close look should tell you which. Thumbs Up


Yeah the lever is one the side: if you look at the bottom picture at the black plug you can see it (inbetween the two holes and goes all the way up the side); I did press it down and try to tug it but probably need to be more forceful.

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
They look squashed, not crimped. Somethings probably loose.


Could be the blue part in the first picture. I did ponder that but didn't know what I was doing (first time messing with wires although I appreciate it's a basic a circuit as you'll ever get).
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:17 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
To clarify, separated at the blue part? (don't want to pull at wrong part).


Yes, the join is obvious. They pull apart - a slight twist often helps.

NJD wrote:
Yeah the lever is one the side: if you look at the bottom picture at the black plug you can see it (inbetween the two holes and goes all the way up the side); I did press it down and try to tug it but probably need to be more forceful.


They can be quite hard to separate - make sure the latch is properly disengaged. Don't pull on the wires, only the connector body.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue bullets are seperated, will probably need pushed back together.

Even a cheap <£10 ratchet crimper will properly crush the connector onto the wire, a "squasher" will usually not, unless you are a gorilla. Ths issue is when someone makes a connection with squashers, it rattle loose over time, and the connection makes no, or worse, intermittant connection with the wire it's supposed to be crimped onto. It can still happen with a ratchet crimp, but it's far less likely.

I had to do this on mine, they had used Pliers to squash the ends on (looks like it was binned and stolen, 2 different sets of "repairs", both using pliers), and half of them were loose. I spent an hour and re-did the lot.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So today I had a look and can confirm that the crimping of the indicator wires on the bullet connectors has probably seen better days and is in need of re-doing: the blue part (as I understand it is supposed to be tightly cemented against the wire and metal thus forming a connection) is loose and can be moved freely.

I accidentally tore out the indicator wire from one of the blue bullet connectors while attempting to get undone and couldn't get the wire back in through the connector (pictured below, similar to) so ran it on top and then down into the circular part, put the blue insulation over the top and electrical taped it in place. Is there a way to get it back in?

https://s20.postimg.org/6kxn0x3od/crimp1.png

See blow for bodgerific wiring.

https://s20.postimg.org/ia1mopul9/1wire.jpg

So would anyone be kind enough to provide a link to basic crimping set (mainly because you'll know what I need as a basic get me started more than I do)?

Tested indicators with ignition on and engine not running and seems to be working. I'll await tool purchase and job attempted before saying done.

And now the front brake light wont illuminate when lever is pressed; it's just one rudy thing after another (probably brakes need cleaning.. again: I've literally done nothing else this past year).
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Baffler186
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buy a soldering iron (£6.28 from Toolstation), and a pack of assorted sized heat shrink tubes (£10ish). This is by far the better option for permanent joins.

You might want to use bullet connectors for the parts that require quick release (e.g. to take the tail unit off in future). Again, toolstation do an assorted pack, and the budget crimping pliers. They are ok as long as you don't try cutting anything too thick, then they'll bend and become useless.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're looking for something like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRICIANS-TERMINAL-RATCHET-CRIMPING-TOOL-HEAVY-DUTY-PROFESSIONAL-QUALITY/302169196639?epid=2255793663&hash=item465ab0085f:g:h3cAAOSwo4pYVYAK

I wouldn't recommend soldering the connections unless you know what you're doing. Soldering isn't hard but it does take some practice.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers.

I'll probably pop into multiple shops some time this week and take a look. Thumbs Up
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Late to the party but to echo the above. I was about to say, pull the wires on those connectors. If the wire comes out instead of the connector coming apart, they have been badly crimped.

A properly crimped one will withstand a load of over 20kg. The connector should deform before the wire pulls out.

They ought to have two crimps per connector. The tool Islander linked to is the correct one which will apply both crimps at once.

This may not be the entire problem but it isn't helping.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
A properly crimped one will withstand a load of over 20kg. The connector should deform before the wire pulls out.


Interesting: as above one of them currently has a loose wire because came apart when pulling bullet connectors apart.

Going to get a basic crimp tool and some bullet connectors and re-do the one that's loose and take a second look at others know I've got a bit more understanding. Looks like a basic job of squashing the connector and indicator wire together with tool, unless I'm missing something (probably need to educate myself on what setting to use and how much force to apply once obtained).

stinkwheel wrote:
This may not be the entire problem but it isn't helping.


Hopefully it solves it. I can't get to relay current because:

https://s20.postimg.org/m9vwyc1vx/image.jpghttps://s20.postimg.org/83g636yrh/image.jpg

Story of my life, no idea how to remove -- not my doing but is my problem. Laughing
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The crimping tool puts two crimps on. The one nearest the end of the connector should be gripping the wire only. The other one should be gripping both the wire and the insulation. You should find the stripped end of the wire pushes into the connector and stops when the insulation butts against the metal bit inside.

Don't cheap out now and try to re-crimp the old ones. Fit new ones and fit them properly.

Re. the burred screw. It's like that because it's a JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screw, not a posidrive or a phillips (which is what you get in a screwdriver set. You need a special JIS screwdriver to remove them or the head gets burred.

They aren't commonly available in the UK, they are expensive and you have to go looking for them. Vessel make them. They also undo phillips screws better than phillips screwdrivers (but destroy posidrives in much the same way as that one has been destroyed).

However, there IS a JIS screwdriver in your bike toolkit. You know the cheap looking effort with the detachable plastic handle? Try that on it, there might be enough left of that screw head to get a grip.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
However, there IS a JIS screwdriver in your bike toolkit. You know the cheap looking effort with the detachable plastic handle? Try that on it, there might be enough left of that screw head to get a grip.


Tried before, screw head is fubar.

Asked shop to drill it out while doing valves and they ignored.

Not an instant problem but is a thorn in side.
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bugeye_bob
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of the crimps look to have been crimped correctly(marks on the insulation look like plier teeth marks), might be worth getting them done properly with heat shrink crimps to seal.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 17:21 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

After interrupting a cat burgling my kitchen I decided to have a go... and failed miserably: it's far too fookin cold to even see straight; two pairs of gloves, a jumper and a coat and I was still wobbling around like an annoyed bee in summer. I definitely butchered more than I did good, oops.

Probably time to book it into a shop and let someone with more knowledge and warm hands deal with it regardless of cost. Judging by a very short rear left (sitting on bike) indicator wire I sense I'm not the first person to have a go at redoing this task.

Plus, even if I do somehow manage to crimp them all correctly as above it's not guaranteed to resolve the issue.

Cry me a river; thanks for the help. Sad Thumbs Up
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most vehicle systems require 12v resistance and when they meet the LEDs with a far lower amount it makes things like solonoids spazz out. Like when a rear indicator bulb has blown, the other flashes faster. LEDs are like a blown bulb as far as the system 'thinks'.

That's the extent of my garbled knowledge on LEDs, garnered from reading about them being fitted into a car's instrument-panel and everything going tits-up.

Then there's the grounding and the crimping.
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Tankie
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
Most vehicle systems require 12v resistance and when they meet the LEDs with a far lower amount it makes things like solonoids spazz out. Like when a rear indicator bulb has blown, the other flashes faster. LEDs are like a blown bulb as far as the system 'thinks'.

That's the extent of my garbled knowledge on LEDs, garnered from reading about them being fitted into a car's instrument-panel and everything going tits-up.

Then there's the grounding and the crimping.

Yes you've got the gist ,but to get led's to work correctly you use transistor controlled flasher unit which does not rely on load to control the flashing rate
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