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davo84
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Intro and touring bike advice! Reply with quote

Hi all! I'm Davide, used to ride RS50 and Cagiva Planet 125cc up to 15 yrs ago, but haven't been on a two wheelers in a long time and looking back to get into it Smile

I'll get a full DAS in the next couple of weeks, and the aim is to get an affordable bike that can be used to have a bit of a nomadic lifestyle with my miss as a passenger(perks of being able to work remotely). Think something like, live 2 months in London, then a month in Paris, then another two in Spain, then get back to London etc..with a budget of up to £6/7k (of course lower the better).

I always loved Harleys and was eyeing a few 883s, but my guess is that is not too comfortable for the passenger on long rides (200-250 miles /day).

Having a look around I noticed that recently few midweights adventurer came out, notably Yamaha NC750X and Kawa Versys 650.

Is there any other bike, or consideration I should make? My main criteria would be comfort, reliability, operating costs and of course safety. Happy to sacrifice looks, age and performances but they should still be fun to ride Smile

Any advice is super appreciated!
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha FJR1300.
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davo84
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mhhhh maybe it's a bit big? It would be my first "proper" bike..!

As a side note, by reading a few more posts seems like I should aim for a lower budget as a first big bike, maybe around £3k?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 26 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pics of missus required to know what bike to recommend.

If you're considering a Harley, they weigh not much less than the FJR. If you do give in to the foggitry, I'd skip the 883 and go straight for a 1200.

In terms of amount of bike for the money, you're not going to do much better than the Suzuki GSX1250F.

But really there are loads of bikes that would do the job. Any of the 650+ 'adventure' bikes, Triumph Tigers, the BMW 800s or the 1200s.

Heck, some people happily tour two-up on maxi scooters, you'll see plenty of them in Euroland.

There are very few bad choices in big modern bikes at that budget.
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davo84
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I really appreciate the input, I've gone around a few dealers and felt a few bikes (the most I can do at the moment):

- Kawa Versys 650
- Kawa Vulcan S
- Yamaha Tracer 700
- Yamaha XV950R
- Honda NC750X
- Honda CB500X
- Honda Rebel 500

the XV950R felt a bit too heavy even though it was very low, so I would exclude bikes over 220-ish kg (especially considering added weight of missus and luggage).

The most comfy one for me were the Rebel 500 and the CB500X, very different bikes and philosophies of course, and clearly the CB is more suited for travel, but would 47hp be enough for a chunky driver, with a tall girlfriend with a bunch of luggage?

Also, considering I live in Brixton, London, I'm thinking of lowering the budget and get something second hand, is there something older I should look at? Confused
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arry
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

davo84 wrote:

Also, considering I live in Brixton, London, I'm thinking of lowering the budget and get something second hand, is there something older I should look at? Confused


A cheap bike and a very aggressive guard dog.

Hey look, you can tour on anything - you really can; but it does become harder the less suitable the machine. The CB500X will be pretty gutless with that sort of weight on it. But then what are you currently used to? Nothing? Well it'll have more than that.

I'd go with a Tiger 800 personally but then Triumph's are as quick to get pinched as a Dindunuffin to protest his innocence.

I would also say my KTM as it's bloody brilliant but then that's bright orange and a proper theft magnet, so.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:


I'd go with a Tiger 800 personally but then Triumph's are as quick to get pinched as a Dindunuffin to protest his innocence.


I was also going to suggest a Tiger 800.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 27 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Early FJR1300? Shaft drive, big engine, sofa like comfort.

Lots of ex-police bikes/blood bikes around that look like police bikes at first glance.

They are a bit wide though... they're also a bit thirsty too and the 25K service may hurt Very Happy
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 03:10 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
In terms of amount of bike for the money, you're not going to do much better than the Suzuki GSX1250F.


Great pillion bike with plenty of room and a good riding position. Harder to climb onto than a cruiser though. Sit on one. Sit pillion on one if you can.

Beware the smaller cruisers with dirty joke pillion seats, they are no fun. Furthermore sat upright and feet forwards gets tiring really quick, a little bit leaning forwards into the wind with your feet beneath you and both your and your pillion will rock back and forth way less and find it easier in motorway speed windblast.

Further note that a lot of cruisery bikes sacrifice rear suspension travel for styling so can be particularly brutal with a pillion onboard. Monoshock rears with a rising rate linkage work much better. Bonus points for easily adjusted rear preload; twin threaded rings are for track bikes and difficult to adjust, 3/5/7 step cams can be done in seconds, some upmarket bikes can set the suspension to pillion mode by prodding the dashboard menus which is great if you are rich and don't want to get hands dirty. I certainly know about it if i forget to adjust as bike is either reluctant to turn or very twitchy and too tall to flat-foot depending on which way i forgot.

Much above 60 is unpleasant on a cruiser without a screen, although adjustable bolt on screens like the MRA Vario ones can make motorway speeds bareable. It's less of an issue with something with a slightly leaning forward riding position like a euro/japanese naked, but anything with a screen or even better an upper fairing will be significantly better.
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kgm
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you liked the cb500x then also look at the vstrom 650. Easy to ride, loads of space and carries the weight of a pillion and luggage very well.

Apparently the gsx1250f isn't all the comfortable for passengers due to the peg position, can't confirm myself but I found quite a number of people who gave that observation. Seems perfect otherwise. CBF1000 is another alternative too.


Last edited by kgm on 12:07 - 28 Nov 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered a TDM?
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Have you considered a TDM?


Now that's an old skool impersonation.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worry about getting that licence first... everythig until then is just dream-land.

Then, after you have spent a couple of days, in the saddle 'solo' doing your training, you probably wont want ANY bike for a month or so until your memories of the aches and pains have faded! Get there, before anything else!

After that.... 2-up riding takes a lot out of you, especially if you have a less confident bunny, who will reflect a lot of your own confidence or lack-of. If you and pillion aren't up to sped, it can be utterly HORRIBLE.

I've actually been on group runs with experienced riders, with 'new' pillions who have turned back within the hour because neither they nor pillion were having fun... One, actually, had a very enthusiastic missus, who had been insisting she wanted to come out with him for a year or more, 'when he gets a bike with a passenger seat bigger than a maxi-pad'.. He bought a K-Series Bimmer, with wind-jammer fairing, about the most car-like sofa then available, and twenty minutes out, they stopped, and DIDN'T turn back.. "I've phoned for a Taxi" She said... "He's waiting till it arrives and will follow us home"

So, first up you need to get yourself up to par, and build your own confidence.. then you need to be able to work with the pillion and get them up to par and build both their confidence and their confidence in you.

Here, bigger can certainly be better, and that old XJR is not a bad call.

Its big, it is heavy, its a Mack-truck on two wheels!! It's also not actually all 'that' powerful, aprox 100bhp, its no more powerful than many 600-class spurts bikes. What it does have is no fairing, so whilst it will accelerate like a bullet on its low down torque, hit around 90mph and the strain on your neck will give you the hint to back off a bit.. preferably before the first corner, were with that much mass you will discover its willingness to change direction isn't quite as lively as an Aprillia 50! With practice it will go round, and fairly easily, and with quite a bit of aplomb... but its no ballerina! 'Planted' is the word that springs to mind, which is great if you have a bunny on the back.

Key is 'smooth', and there in lies the catch, with that much muscle on tap, its very easy to 'squid-it' accelerating hard out of a corner, braking hard for the next, and teetering round beds frightened of falling over... this is not wonderful solo, even less so 2-Up.... but bike can encourage smooth, that torque-monster motor, is very very flexible, and wont encourage you to rev the knackers of it, you can ride it almost entirely on the throttle, and forget the gearbox. Now, a little smooth, no harsh acceleration, no hard braking and a little corner speed to help hold the bike up in the bends, you can make a lot of progress, and its far less tiring on you and on the bike, and when you stick a bunny on a pillion.... they should not be headbutting you with their hat, giving you both a headache with five miles!

Here the shear pork of a heavy-weight is a positive asset. The weight damps a lot of clumsiness and smooths out a lot of more jerky actions. Get used to managing that mass, get used to being smooth, you get a smooth comfy ride for you and the pillion that is far less tiring for both of you, and you 'can' go for mile after mile, even day after day, not swearing at each other, or one or other of you threatening never to get on that bloody machine ever again!

I will, and have, 2-Upped on a 125.... even a max-pad pillion seat cruiserette! It was, in a perverse sort of way, 'fun', but I can whole-heartedly NOT recommend it... especially if you hope to have sex with the pillion at any time in the foreseeable future, if ever!

On a lightweight like that, you have maybe 125Kg of mass in the bike. I weigh aprox 200lb/90Kg +/- 30K or so depending on the weather. O/H weighs... err... self preservation makes me type 'aprox' (very aprox!) 150Lb/70Kg +/- err... sorry, my gonads have shrunk like a tom cat! But I think you get the idea! My daughter, is barely 100lb/50Kg wringing wet, but even with her crisp-packet mass, 2-Up, the 'balance' has shifted from more weight being in the bike, to being above it, on a lightweight.

O/H's 750 Guzzi, is I think aprox 160Kg which is still relatively light for a 500-750 class middle-weight, the mass in the bike, 'may' just be greater than me + daughter 2-Up, and it may ride more like it would solo, but, not when the O/H is on the buny... whch s also a little cramped compared to bigger bikes, like....

My 750; it tipped the brake calculator scales at the MOT man's a while back, at a surprising 199Kg.. about 5Kg under 'book'... petrol tank must have been near empty! But, 90Kg of me, + err... 70Kg of O/H, and we are just about rolling with more weight in the bike than rider & passenger above it.. strap some camping kit to the bike, and it helps the balance a bit more... and on something in the 250Kg range like my old thou', and the ratio is very much more in your favour.

Here weight is good. And in Wales a couple of years back, coming down some rather horrible hills, daughter was scaring the living daylights out of her gran, following in a car, clambering all over the bunny-seat, taking photo's with her i-phone!

As sad, she's a fly-weight, but she also has a lot of confidence on the bunny, that she can 'get away' with shifting around and taking those sort of liberties, and I wont crash as a result..... I would like to take the credit, but I cant entirely; she was perched on the petrol tank for rides up and down the drive as a toddler, whenever I came home from work, or she'd wedge her walker so I could't open the ruddy garden gate... and I'd suffer tantrums till bed-time! Later she would clamber on to my trails bike.. the tank or the mudguard, when I went out to practice... So she knows better than to do anything 'too' daft or more seriously, 'sudden', on the bunny.. is well practiced, and has a inordinate empathy and confidence n my riding, and as importantly gives ME similar confidence in HER as a bunny.... that she's NOT going to try steering the bike for me, leaning into a bend before I get there, or picking it up mid corner, or flapping around perversely reacting to every little rider movement I make.... as an awful lot of pillions DO try and do, and what does make it so much more tiring... if not terrifying! for both of you!

(Actually, possibly the 'best' pillion I ever had, was an old school mate, who was drunk! NOT a great combination, usually, but on the bunny, he just passed out and was the proverbial sack-of-spuds! Biggest problem was his chin on my shoulder and his ruddy snoring!.. most worry-some part was when I got him home, and trying not to startle him awake, so I could get off, without falling off! Lol)

But, daughter's example sort of shows the sort of 'partnership' between rider and pillion that can evolve..... note it IS a partnership; and you both have to have confidence in the other, and you both have to have more than a little know-how... with that, its almost like riding solo. Without it? Its just HORRIBLE.

Takes time and practice to develop that kind of innate confidence, but you do need have to have the self confidence to begin with.

DO NOT, book a trans-continental tour six weeks after passing DAS!

Start with some solo rides, get your own confidence up; then try some short round the block rides to get feel for pillioning... remember your CBT/DAS and the Q&A at the beginning of your test, where you are almost guaranteed to get questions of how a pillion effects the balence of the bike, what adjustments to make, and how to change your riding to suit..... from round the block, build up to slightly longer runs... maybe the shops or a country pub..... and build from there, to maybe days out, before even considering catching a ferry anywhere!

As sad, you need to develop that confidence and partnership, and try and avoid the turning back after five miles, or worse, waiting to follow a taxi type scenario. Get there, and the likelihood of a pillion ever clambering on the back again, after, is slim to nill.

If 2-up work is a large part of your intent and intended post test riding, then this relationship with most likely pillion is paramount, and just as you need training as a rider, to get a licence, and then to start learning to ride solo, so too does your pillion need chance to learn, and you need chance to learn how to ride with a pillion.

I advise so often, to new riders, that the bike is the last thing you really need worry about... and its just as true here... first you need to learn to ride, and get a licence. THEN you might worry about a bike... and THEN the real work starts if you want a pillion on it....

Here heavy works. It gives stability, and smooths out being smooth. Moe commodious bunny-seat is also likely advantageous side effect.

Getting up to speed yourself, post test, building your ow confidence, a big heavy 'battle-ship' of a bike, that has the ass to be inherently stable ad smooth out numptiess, IF you learn not to squid, can be as good a place as any to start, and let you get familiar with a bike more pillion friendly before you start taking a pillion, and almost having to re-learn how to ride, whilst you 'train' the pillion....

Picking lighter solo-bike to get your confidence up fist, has pro's and cons; may give you an excuse to NOT take the pillion, whilst you are getting your own confidence up, but can also let you get into bad habits and not encourage you to be so smooth... on that score learning to pillion can do an awful lot for your riding solo, but there's o real right or wrong answer, which way about to go... same as there's no real right or wrong bike, post DAS.....

And that remains the first hurdle....

What bike? Is a log way down the line. What bike may best suit a frequent flier on the bunny, even further.

Take it one step at a time, DON'T RUSH, rushing is fast way to hurt, of some sort or another, when it comes to to bikes. Ride the bit of road you are on, not the bit umpety miles away you may get to eventually

Or don't try leaning into bends before you reach them.. back off, take your time, let it flow ad aim for smooth; smooth s swift is safe, and frequently a heck of a lot faster and certainly less tiring than quick and sudden, and jerky, which may feel fast but seldom is or safe. BE SMOOTH.. take your time, let it happen its own good time Don't Rush! On the bike or off it.

Good luck getting the licence... till then? Don't sweat the small-stuff. Just take one step at a time, NO RUSH!
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kgm
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 28 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long winded spiel aside it is definitely worth gaining experience before even considering taking the pillion. I thought with about 8 months on the ER6 (plus more on 125) and a couple of short rides with a pillion that I was confident enough to go on a tour. The weather turned shit, I ended up riding down a poorly surfaced road and I binned it with the Mrs on the back (at low speed luckily so no major damage or injuries). That was on day 2.

Having a pillion on the back of a lightweight bike can make a big difference, especially one with budget suspension. I'm quite happy taking a pillion now but I hate the ER6 with a pillion on the back. Other bikes are night and day.

My Mrs still hasn't gotten her confidence back though as she's only been out for a couple of short runs on test rides, etc. (Tracer 900 was great for us both) and won't go near the ER6 now. That will hopefully be changing once my CX500 is on the road with it's big sofa seat.
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davo84
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PostPosted: 11:27 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really good advice, thank you!

One thing I have not thought about at all, is weight. I'm around 100kg and my miss is around 65/70kg (she wouldn't tell me the precise number Razz) and quite tall.

Aside from the fact that I used to ride with a pillion on my RS50, but never done more than 50km with one on the back, so i know what you are talking about with too much weight on a lightweight bike, I'd definitely ride for a good 6 months at least before getting into any serious trip, I just don't want to change the bike after 1 year Rolling Eyes

In that light there are maybe three takeaways for me here:

- Don't rush (got it!)
- Maybe I can sacrifice some luggage for a lower / heavier bike (like a cruiser), though I really like the TDM idea!
- might be best to rent a couple of different bikes before purchasing one?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

davo84 wrote:
i know what you are talking about with too much weight on a lightweight bike

That's why we're suggesting bikes like the FJR1300 and GSX1250F or I guess the R1200GS like half the planet although that'll last 5 minutes in Brixton.

You're only going to get confident and competent at taking a pillion by taking a pillion, and just throwing your pillion-poppet on the back seat unprepared and taking off for Outer Mongolia would be mental.

I guess sometimes it does take someone to Tef the bleedin' obvious though.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a heavy enough bike to start with, you shouldn't have to sacrifice any luggage. And luggage adds to the fixed mass of the bike, to help stability that bit more.

Cruisers? so compromised for a style, rarely have the best erganomics, either for rider or pillion, but often especially so the pillon, who may get a back-rest, but often a maxipad on the muduard for a seat! Best described as for occasional use only! Low seat height also seldom make them any easier to manage; Chap I used to ride with, when he had his missus on the back, would stand up at traffic lights and such when he stopped, because of the perverse 'leverage' trying to prop up a bike with low slung saddle, and forward set foot-pegs, from the saddle, especially with his missus perched up on high on the back... fine, I would imagine in the USA on an interstate, where you might keep moving for hundreds of miles at a stretch non-stop, slightly less convenient trying to get from on side of a UK city to another, though!

TDM would probably do quite well, its a far compromise between a middle-weight commuter and a litre-plus heavyweight. Seat & CofG may be quite tall, but it's the overall ergonomics that matter, and its otherwise pretty neutral and gives plenty of leverage at legs and arms, when you need it. I wouldn't discount it.

Test rides and rentals? Bit pot-luck there, many dealers wont give you test rides at all, others will want your driving licence and hefty deposit, and refuse if you are beneath their insurers age limit or have't held licence as long as their insurers demand, usually around 2 years. Rental Co's often cater mostly to the dispatch companies, or the insurance co's for curtecy bikes. So yo may have limited choice of bikes, either because of their hire terms, or availability. Some do week-end rents of 'toys' folk aspire to but probably wouldn't buy, like Ducati's or Harleys, but ether way, they tend not to be all that cheap! A week-end rent could easily be fair chunk of a second hand bike! But your money, your call.

Meanwhle.. ducks in a row, you need a licence before ANYTHING...

Stop fretting about Bikes, go revise for your motorcycle Theory/Haz-Pep! Boring, BUT... right now, that's what'll be far more use to getting you where you hope to go, in the long run.
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davo84
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mhhhh I think we are saying the same thing, I don't intend to go on a trans-siberian right off the bat..!

In the meanwhile CBT and tests booked.. and I managed to ask the riding school to let me try a few bikes (they're also a shop)!
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davo84
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PostPosted: 17:44 - 04 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

And CBT completed, now onto theory test!

Last edited by davo84 on 23:30 - 04 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 04 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

davo84 wrote:
Hand CBT completed, now onto theory test!


Well done. How did you get on? Did you manage to get a sit on any other bikes?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 04 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice one. All confident? That's largely what the tests come down to, they're really not that hard and I reckon you can over-prepare for them. Just smash them in, then get on to the real learning.
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Tdibs
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 04 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bag a cheap Vstrom 1000/Tiger800/TDM900 with full luggage
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davo84
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PostPosted: 23:28 - 04 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I was a bit concerned as I haven't been on a bike for over 10 years but it took 10 meters to get it all back (except the YBR gear box which didn't like to get back in null).

The only comment was about my tendency to keep two fingers on the front brake, which apparently is not well seen by examiners here, but is warmly advised in Italy, other than that all good.

I couldn't have a go on other bike as I have only done the afternoon on the road (due to previous experience) and they wouldn't let me ride a bigger bike on the road (obviously) but as it's also a shop I managed to sit on a few bikes and pretty much settled on the V-Strom / Versys / Tracer category, I just need to try them all when I get the license and see what I find second hand for around £3k and registered after 2008 (Because London's ULEZ).
Should try to find something unappealing too (because London's pikeys).

Mr. Green
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 04 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

davo84 wrote:
The only comment was about my tendency to keep two fingers on the front brake, which apparently is not well seen by examiners here

Because they're Roadcrafting spergs who put principle above practicality. I was told the same during my CBT, rode "correctly" during my test, but you can bet I cover the controls while in traffic.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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andyscooter
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Joined: 30 May 2009
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 05 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

done the two finger thing ever since I passed my test
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gilera runner vxr200 (chavped)
if its spelt wrong its my fat fingers and daft auto correct on my tablet
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The last post was made 6 years, 106 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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