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Motorcycle cold weather (sub zero)

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CivilDrone
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PostPosted: 05:56 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Motorcycle cold weather (sub zero) Reply with quote

Morning
Ive finally got the license by using my mates bike, insurance cost me 250 a month + 2 theory tests. Was around 350 which was pretty good

Anyway, bought a honda hornet cb600f and loving it

Lately temps dropped down to sub zero temps and i was not able to start the bike. It would turn over and shut down after few seconds, on choke. After which it would not turn over again until it gets warmer outside

I swapped out the battery for new one, result was exactly the same.

My guess is that oil might get thicker once cold and would not go around.

Any ideas or suggestions on what could that be or maybe someone was in a simmilar situation?

Any help/advise is appreciated

Regards
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Ted
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PostPosted: 07:31 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

When did the bike last have a service?

Is it stored outside?
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Motorcycle cold weather (sub zero) Reply with quote

CivilDrone wrote:

My guess is that oil might get thicker once cold and would not go around.


How far below zero is the temperature going? Shocked

Yes engines are more reluctant to start at lower temps, but not turning over sounds a bit extreme. arry may have some insight into cold bikes not starting......
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colink98
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PostPosted: 10:02 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a CBF600 (which is practically the same bike).

When cold i start her by holding the choke out (these tend not to stay out by themselves so should be held out) and use NO throttle.

the bike will start up and sit at around 800 rpm and then steadily creep up over a period of 20-30 seconds or longer if really cold.

any attempt to raise the rpm with the throttle will kill the engine.

once the engine is idling at 1500 rpm or so you can can then let the choke in and the engine will respond to the throttle.

it took me a couple of times to get the gist of it...
but i don't have any issues now.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:32 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 to the implied advice above: do a basic service. Oil, filter, plugs, coolant.

Don't believe a damn thing in any service history, or what you were assured by the previous owner. You could have done the lot for less than the cost of an unnecessary new battery.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Motorcycle cold weather (sub zero) Reply with quote

CivilDrone wrote:
Morning
Ive finally got the license by using my mates bike, insurance cost me 250 a month + 2 theory tests. Was around 350 which was pretty good

Anyway, bought a honda hornet cb600f and loving it

Lately temps dropped down to sub zero temps and i was not able to start the bike. It would turn over and shut down after few seconds, on choke. After which it would not turn over again until it gets warmer outside

I swapped out the battery for new one, result was exactly the same.

My guess is that oil might get thicker once cold and would not go around.

Any ideas or suggestions on what could that be or maybe someone was in a simmilar situation?

Any help/advise is appreciated

Regards


Most importantly.... When you swapped the battery out.... did you do it on a public footpath and leave it in bits tied to a lampost?
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weasley
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Motorcycle cold weather (sub zero) Reply with quote

CivilDrone wrote:
My guess is that oil might get thicker once cold and would not go around.


Oil does get thicker, yes, but it shouldn't get so thick it prevents the engine from cranking. A typical oil for this bike would be a 10W-40 - an oil like this has to pass a "cold cranking simulator" test at -25°C; it didn't get that cold.

However, an oil that has been used for a long time and not changed will thicken more than this - if it is really fubar then all bets are off. But even then, it ought to still crank, albeit slowly.

If it is literally not cranking at all, then it's a power supply issue (bad battery, bad earthing, bad wiring, bad starter motor, bad starter solenoid etc).
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CivilDrone
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bike is and always was stored outside
I use 2 covers, oxford stormex on top and another, thinner one underneath

Temps went down to -2 or so, had frost on cover and grass in the garden

It would always turn over on the first try, choke half way and slight throttle rev on start, without it wont turn over. Full choke and its too much as well

Bought motul 5l oil and filter just to make sure its not that

Unsure about spark plugs, could that be the cause?

When its warmer outside, later in the morning i have 0 issues starting the bike

Are spark plugs affected by cold?
Recently drained and replaced coolant
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Tdibs
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plugs depends on condition could effect it. Cheap(er) thing to rule out if they are well past their best.

When you say it wont turn over after it initially fires up, the starter keeps going its just not firing?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

CivilDrone wrote:
It would always turn over on the first try, choke half way and slight throttle rev on start, without it wont turn over. Full choke and its too much as well.

You might have to adjust the choke up or down when it does start, and maybe don't use throttle. You could be flooding it.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

CivilDrone wrote:
It would always turn over on the first try, choke half way and slight throttle rev on start, without it wont turn over. Full choke and its too much as well


Two bikes, both with chokes.

I've always gone with full choke -- ALWAYS -- and then the button and a little bit of throttle but once its started you won't touch the throttle because it will cut out. Thankfully my current choke is auto (I only need to push it forward to lessen the choke) unlike the LM Arrow that needed to be held (what a pain in the arse that was standing there for ten years).

Saying that the LM Arrow was a sod for cutting out even with the above method: the LM Arrow hated the cold altogether.

Every single bike is different, I'd expect the more you ride in cold weather the more you'll get used to how much of a pain or in what way to start it.

Echo the above: give it a service and you'll know where you're at.
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CivilDrone
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PostPosted: 05:31 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, on the second attempt starter would keep on going but wouldnt fire. Once i get back to it later on and give it a go has no issues

Managed to get it going on full choke with tiny bit of throttle for it to catch, then gradually lower choke and whoala

Still changing oil/filter

Will update if it works tomorrow

Thanks for all the help and advise
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 07:42 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it starts once it should keep going. If it doesn't then it's not getting the fuel it needs for cold running.

As above full choke NO throttle and let it idle for a few moments. If it still does the same trick then the carbs need servicing.

Minus 2 is NO problem for petrol engines to start on choke, covered up or not. Oil might affect cranking if it was very heavy but if it starts once forget the oil as a likely cause. Same for the spark plugs though if they were very old it might have a general effect on the running and starting.
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colink98
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PostPosted: 09:44 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

CivilDrone wrote:
Yep, on the second attempt starter would keep on going but wouldnt fire. Once i get back to it later on and give it a go has no issues


this would be an indication flooding.
using any throttle when starting on the choke is going to flood the engine.
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CivilDrone
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even on full choke it would not fire up unless i add a tiny bit of throttle. At least now i know it works in that scenario

I might have to re-config choke as that might be playing up as i only use half way during the day

Another question
Sometimes it feels like when turning throttle slightly would do nothing at all. As if no signal goes through that throttle has been used. Maybe its just me but what would affect that?
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colink98
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PostPosted: 10:56 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

it depends how slightly....
there is a little slack on the throttle.

the service manual for the CBF600 gives a throttle free play of between 2mm and 6mm

so a little bit.
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wots
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find carb'd bikes in the cold are like women. You need to know what to do to get the best out of them, they can be good to go, or need a bit of special treatment to get them in the mood.

My previous carb'd fireblade 919, most of the year, no choke whatsoever. Any attempt to use any, would cause it to flood fairly quickly and then you'd need to sit and wait 15-20 minutes. When it got colder, I needed varying amounts of choke but rarely full. I'm a turn on and go type anyway, rather than leave standing, even in the coldest I could probably run choke free half a mile up the road.

Whereas other bikes have needed full choke, all year round and left on for longer.

Generally, as above, throttle is a bad thing and in fact until I've removed the choke I try and ride using the extra revs and saunter along until warmed up a little, then start to crack the throttle.

A good battery is essential this time of year too, even a cheaper replacement (rather than a good Motobatt for instance) will be better than one with already reduced life. Especially if you have to do a longer start.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Thundercat needs choke every day of the year. Full choke and a little whiff of throttle just to start it, then leave the throttle alone until it has been running for a bit. Choke gets put in in small increments as the idle speed rises, to get the idle back to around 1,500 or so. By the time I have my earplugs, helmet, glasses and gloves in place I can put the choke away and ride off.

Also it seems much confusion came from the (IMHO) misuse of the term "turn over". This commonly means the cranking of the engine by the starter motor - which it now appears your bike is doing (so, it is turning over). What it is not (sometimes) doing is "firing" and/or "running".

So, to use the vernacular, it is "turning over but not firing". This is not a power thing, it is most likely a fuelling thing (as suggested in various posts above).
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 20:01 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinK98 wrote:
CivilDrone wrote:
Yep, on the second attempt starter would keep on going but wouldnt fire. Once i get back to it later on and give it a go has no issues


this would be an indication flooding.
using any throttle when starting on the choke is going to flood the engine.


I can't agree with that.

There's no choke on a modern bike with CV carbs (there may be the odd weirdo exception but mostly, they don't have a choke). What they have is a fuel enrichment circuit whereby a plunger is pulled which uncovers a hole adding an additional circuit which can pull extra fuel into the inlet for cold running. It is entirely independent of the normal running circuit.

Using throttle whilst the enrichment circuit is open lets in more air and thus leans out the overall mixture rather than en-richening it. It does the opposite of flooding the engine and it's the reason why you're advised NOT to use the throttle. Nothing to do with flooding.

There are some bikes with manual accelerator pumps (I had a cg125 with it) and you can flood a bike by constantly cranking the throttle on these, but the Hornet in question doesn't have it far as I know.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:12 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFI bikes also have a fast run when you first start them up to warm them up.


My CBR doesn't have it as somebody remapped it so you have to give it some gas else it doesn't catch.

Has excellent fuel economy though due to the remap.
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wots
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said above, I'm a start and go type. On my CBR1000RR, that means nearly 30mph in 2nd on fast idle. Laughing Means a bit of clutch feathering until the revs start to drop.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:

There's no choke on a modern bike with CV carbs (there may be the odd weirdo exception but mostly, they don't have a choke). What they have is a fuel enrichment circuit whereby a plunger is pulled which uncovers a hole adding an additional circuit which can pull extra fuel into the inlet for cold running. It is entirely independent of the normal running circuit.

Using throttle whilst the enrichment circuit is open lets in more air and thus leans out the overall mixture rather than en-richening it. It does the opposite of flooding the engine and it's the reason why you're advised NOT to use the throttle. Nothing to do with flooding.


Yup, can confirm above on cbr600f4 (fx/y)
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colink98
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PostPosted: 09:44 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:

I can't agree with that.


fair enough...i was just referencing my CBF600 Handbook.
it has a paragraph about the engine not starting due to being flooded.

it recommend to kill the choke, flip the kill engine switch and crank the engine on full throttle to clear the fuel.

maybe my CBF (2004) is still old enough to have a choke and carbs.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 11:00 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold oil will not prevent an engine from turning over. A cold battery will not release as much power as fast as a battery at normal temperature though.
The only real issue with cold oil is cavitation where the oil is slow to flow and the pump cavitates (runs in a vacuum). That can lead to unlubricated parts. Advice then is to allow the engine time to get oil to remote parts before giving it the beans.
At least wait for the oil lamp to go off.
For cold starting full choke, crack the throttle open (just off the idle stop) and crank over until the engine starts.
It should run fine from there with maybe just small tweak of throttle.
The issue with cold starting is that fuel from the carb condenses on cold surfaces so less fuel than needed for combustion gets to the cylinder/s.
There is a precise amount of fuel to air mixture (ratio) required for proper combustion in any engine.
The choke reduces the amount of air (oxygen) so that increases the a,out of fuel to air. Which provides for the loses due to fuel condensing outside the cylinder.

As above, a properly serviced and adjusted engine will start easily in sub-zero temps. With modern fuels and electronic ignition they start even easier.
Sorry for going al Tef. Embarassed
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Last edited by MCN on 11:02 - 01 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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