Help & FAQs    Search BCF    Members    Groups    Events Calendar
Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Can a dead battery kill your reg/rec?

 Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Workshop
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Snorty
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 20:53 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Can a dead battery kill your reg/rec? Reply with quote
So the other day I stupidly ran out of petrol on a national speed limit country road with no lights.

I had to use my hazards whilst pushing it - when I got to the petrol station many hours later, the battery was dead, so it wouldn't start.

Got some jump leads and started it up, but obviously the battery was completely dead.

A week or so later, and my bike completely cuts out, I managed to bump it but then it dies again. It's obviously not charging.

Could charging a battery from completely flat killed the reg/rec on the bike?
____________________
Current: Yamaha FZ1 '07 | GSXR 750 SRAD

Past: CB125TDC | TZR125 | GPZ500 | CBR600F3 | ZX9-R | GSXR1000 K4
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts
stinkwheel This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Confusing). Unhide this post / all posts.

Snorty
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 21:22 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Jump starting from a running car can.

Could also be the battery is just fubar.


Nah it wasn't running. I suppose the battery could be, though it seemed fine for a while after the jump start, quite a few long journeys.
____________________
Current: Yamaha FZ1 '07 | GSXR 750 SRAD

Past: CB125TDC | TZR125 | GPZ500 | CBR600F3 | ZX9-R | GSXR1000 K4
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Karma :
PostPosted: 21:27 - 29 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Jump starting from a running car can.

Could also be the battery is just fubar.


I have to take exception with this.

Jumpstarting from a running car will not damage a 12 v bike system. Done it loads of times.

If you're stupid enough to do it to a 6v system you deserve everything you get.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

colink98
Could Be A Chat Bot



Joined: 27 Jun 2016
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:48 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I recently follow the fault finding chart for dealing with charging systems.

https://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

its really helpful and also you learn a bit about what's going on with the bikes charging system and to diagnose if there are any faults.

it might be the case that your battery is a bit pants or the charging system is a bit pants and this situation where the battery got fully deaded was sufficient to bring the whole thing down.
____________________
PCX125 (stolen) - CBF600 (current)
Ride it like you stole it.
ride sensible and not like an idiot and you wont get 6 points in one week.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Baffler186
World Chat Champion



Joined: 31 May 2013
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:53 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
got a multi-meter? Check battery and reg/rec and you will be able to tell for sure. Could be that the battery was on it's way out anyway, and running full flat put the nail in the coffin.

Some bizarre coincidences might have occurred also, i.e. your reg/rec might have failed before you ran out of petrol, and buggered the battery, but you usually get some warning i.e. number plate light bulbs, indicator bulbs blowing in a very short space of time.

You can check your battery when charged (if it charges) with a multi-meter but for a real test you need to take it to a battery specialist. If it were me, I'd be getting a new battery and double checking the charging system before you fit it.

There's a good explanation here https://www.denniskirk.com/learn/how-to-diagnose-motorcycle
____________________
Current: 2009 SV650 S, 1990 Kawasaki GT550
Previous: 2009 CBF125, 1998 GSF600, 2004 FZ6 Fazer, 1978 CB400a Hondamatic
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 12:57 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:


I have to take exception with this.

Jumpstarting from a running car will not damage a 12 v bike system. Done it loads of times.


Yes it can. You've simply got away with it loads of times.

If your bikes reg/rec is set to dump at a lower voltage than the car's alternator regulates to, when you hook the running cars charging system up to your bike, the bike reg/rec will start trying to regulate the cars charging system.

Most cars have a field coil alternator, they just keep upping their output as load increases. So your bikes reg rec is dumping power, the car alternator keeps upping its output. You can hear it happening because the car will start revving up as the alternator load increases.

A car alternator can pump out in excess of 700 watts... How long do you reckon a shunt mode bike reg/rec will last with 700w going through it?

Redundant now because the OP, sensibly, jumped it with the car engine off.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Karma :
PostPosted: 19:46 - 30 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's funny, I always assumed that the diodes in the rectifier of the rec/reg prevented current going that way....
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kawasaki Jimbo
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Oct 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 00:27 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Could running a bike with a duff battery kill the reg/rec? I believe so.
When a weak battery hungrily draws from a reg/rec like a flat battery draws from an Optimate it goes beyond the normal operating parameters of the reg/rec. Unfortunately electronics is like black magic to me so I can't be sure. The "How does a diode fail?" section near the bottom of this link might have the answer. PIV is peak inverse voltage which, when exceeded, allows reverse flow apparently.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

sickpup
Old Timer



Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 14:18 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Yes it can. You've simply got away with it loads of times.

If your bikes reg/rec is set to dump at a lower voltage than the car's alternator regulates to, when you hook the running cars charging system up to your bike, the bike reg/rec will start trying to regulate the cars charging system.

Most cars have a field coil alternator, they just keep upping their output as load increases. So your bikes reg rec is dumping power, the car alternator keeps upping its output. You can hear it happening because the car will start revving up as the alternator load increases.

A car alternator can pump out in excess of 700 watts... How long do you reckon a shunt mode bike reg/rec will last with 700w going through it?

Redundant now because the OP, sensibly, jumped it with the car engine off.


First why would you have the car running? Second if things were that dead it would be highly unlikely that the Alternator on the car would instantly kick out that kind of power as the battery on the bike wouldn't require it. Thirdly see Nobby's post.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Karma :
PostPosted: 15:50 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tbh it's probably a killed reg/rec that resulted in the dead battery, and it's only become apparent because you can no longer start the bike.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Chris45
Nitrous Nuisance



Joined: 23 Oct 2016
Karma :
PostPosted: 16:16 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Tbh it's probably a killed reg/rec that resulted in the dead battery, and it's only become apparent because you can no longer start the bike.


Reckon that's the real source of the problem. But then again if the poor guy wants to continuously recharge the battery, drive the bike and then push it home... that's his problem not ours! As for starting your bike from a car battery (in situ) I wouldn't and never have. However reading the Haynes Tech Book, earlier posts are correct, as long as its 12V with a similar Ah to the bikes battery, the reg/rec is built to deliver 14.5 V Max. If faced with this problem I would disconnect the car battery first (as a precaution) and then connect it to the bike battery.
____________________
Honda CG125>Suzuki GT185>Honda CB 250N>Suzuki GSX400>Honda CX500B>Kawasaki GPZ305> Kawasaki GPZ550>Kawasaki GPZ500S+BMW 650GS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 16:25 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:


First why would you have the car running?


Ask nobby, he's done it loads of times.

I think people are worried the "donor" car will land up with a flat battery instead. In the 60's and 70's, they were probably correct. Try to jump another car off an Austin maxi and you'd better have the engine running and your foot on the gas.

You still see people doing this to jump start cars. It's a great way to fuck the ECU of the car with the flat battery. Especially peugeots.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

andy_uk
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 20:37 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It's funny, I always assumed that the diodes in the rectifier of the rec/reg prevented current going that way....

Unfortunately not.
The normal order of things would be : Stator > diodes > regulator > battery
The diodes will stop anything flowing back to the stator but the regulator module (and the rest of the electrical system) would take the full brunt of the extra power being thrown at it.
____________________
Aprilia Classic 125, GS500E, ER5-A1, ER5-C4, ER6 & an XJ6 project frame...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Karma :
PostPosted: 22:39 - 01 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
andy_uk wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It's funny, I always assumed that the diodes in the rectifier of the rec/reg prevented current going that way....

Unfortunately not.
The normal order of things would be : Stator > diodes > regulator > battery
The diodes will stop anything flowing back to the stator but the regulator module (and the rest of the electrical system) would take the full brunt of the extra power being thrown at it.


So, you think that the people making alternators or reg/recs for bikes are having the transistors and ICs made specially when millions are made for cars and also use about 12v? They have virtually identical parts in. Why make what you can buy off the shelf from ford?

Mental...
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

smegballs
World Chat Champion



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Karma :
PostPosted: 07:26 - 02 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cars and bikes use different types of regulator 95+% of the time. Cars use field regulation with a brushed alternator and the vast vast majority of bikes have shunt regulators and permanent magnet alternators.

"12V is 12V is 12V" isn't going to really apply here

The car's alternator is able to be "throttled" up or down depending on load. The bikes alternator effectively runs at wide open throttle all the time with excess power shorted out, causing heating and potentially some big currents to flow.

So essentially if you connect with the car running the bikes regulator will attempt to dump the excess power. Given that the cars ability to provide amps is much higher than the bikes RRs ability to sink those amps safely, something is likely to get toasted.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 10:35 - 02 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:

So, you think that the people making alternators or reg/recs for bikes are having the transistors and ICs made specially when millions are made for cars and also use about 12v? They have virtually identical parts in. Why make what you can buy off the shelf from ford?

Mental...


I don't THINK they're different. I KNOW they're different. They are about as far from identical as you can get for two things that do roughly the same job.

Car and motorcycle alternators are totally different systems. As I'm sure has been discussed, car alternators generally use a field-coil alternator. The voltage is regulated by switching the supply to the field coils on and off. When voltage gets too high, they cut the power to the field coils which stops it generating power. They don't dump excess like a bike one does.

I'd imagine some of them will still be electro-mechanical. They have a set of points in there which open and close to energise and de-energise the field coils. If they aren't, it's essentially a transistorised version of the same idea. They get a tad more complex than the example below because modern ones have an element of current regulation but this is your basic, mark 1 voltage regulator for a car.

https://www.secondchancegarage.com/articles/images/regulator/photo1.gif

Some bikes do use this type but they are the exception. I know for a fact Moto Guzzi, some Ducatis, Jawas and a few Japanese oddities do.

Yes, mental. The car system is much more effective and efficient and produces much more power. They only produce power according to the load on them. The downsides are that there are wearable parts in a field coil alternator and the rotor tends to be a bit bulkier. There may be issues with running one wet too. I can't recall ever seeing a wet field coil alternator.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Snorty
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 12:56 - 21 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turned out to be a melted connector.

Put a new connector on and all is well Thumbs Up
____________________
Current: Yamaha FZ1 '07 | GSXR 750 SRAD

Past: CB125TDC | TZR125 | GPZ500 | CBR600F3 | ZX9-R | GSXR1000 K4
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 6 years, 124 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Workshop All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
 You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.09 Sec - Server Load: 0.61 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 110.59 Kb