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Insurance. WTF is going on nowadays?

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Courier265
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PostPosted: 00:49 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Courier265 wrote:

NU pulled out many years ago but all they did was stop taking on any new policies but current policies would be honoured and I still have the same rider policy. I'm allowed 4 bikes on the policy, any CC so I can still have a Ducati Monster if I really want to..


So, you had a rider policy with unlimited cc since the 90's? When did you pass your test?


1985....
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arry
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PostPosted: 01:52 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
trevoriv wrote:
Rate hasn't been changed yet and we don't know when or what it will be changed to although we have a pretty good idea. But sshhhh don't tell everyone! Laughing


I still say that saying a £3M claim would become a £8M claim shows a lack of knowledge on how discounting actually works and was just the insurance companies crying wolf as an excude to increase premiums excessively


OK I'm calling it. Examples. Go.

Rate is still the rate. It hasn't been reversed. Or do you know something I don't?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I still say that saying a £3M claim would become a £8M claim shows a lack of knowledge on how discounting actually works and was just the insurance companies crying wolf as an excude to increase premiums excessively


OK I'm calling it. Examples. Go.

Rate is still the rate. It hasn't been reversed. Or do you know something I don't?


FT good enough for you? You know, the paper for people who actually understand finance and accounting, unlike the shysters in the insurance industry who only understand risk?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=OGden+rate

(FT is behind a pay wall so you may find it easier to search in google for 'Ogden rate'. It'll be one of the top results.)
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://i.imgur.com/FPF1Vve.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/l4KEi64.jpg
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arry
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
arry wrote:

OK I'm calling it. Examples. Go.

Rate is still the rate. It hasn't been reversed. Or do you know something I don't?


FT good enough for you? You know, the paper for people who actually understand finance and accounting, unlike the shysters in the insurance industry who only understand risk?


Come on Nobby, you're better than that.

What's the rate, as at today - is it still -0.75%? Specifically is it going back to what it was before, ie reversed? The answer is no, and no, and you know it.

I'm taking exception to this because you're stating as fact that you know what the discount rate means and insurers and solicitors and everyone that works with it day in, day out, doesn't. It makes a critical difference to my business and it's my job to know it. So I'm calling you - examples please; show me how a £3m claim can't go to £8m
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owl
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PostPosted: 15:26 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

fite me

I want a claim
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby you've dropped this onto another thread and I think it was for me on this one? I've quoted it over here anyway because it's relevant - hope you don't mind.

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It'll have to take someone to need £100k a year and have an expected remaining lifetime of 45 years.

How many of them do you get?

https://i.imgur.com/ct2JLXA.jpg


Afraid you're incorrect here. Let's just stick with Loss of Earnings and ignore future care etc just to keep things more simple than they could be if we add in further rates and adjustments.

These are the latest Ogden Tables:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/599837/Actuarial_tables_for_use_in_personal_injury_and_fatal_accident_cases_7th_edition_Supplementary_Tables.pdf

The discount rate isn't a direct multiple figure used in the calculation. The discount rate relates to which set of multipliers are used from the table.

If we take a 25 year old male and look at table 1 for pecuniary loss - you'll see that at 2.5% rate the multiplier is 30.92 whereas at -.075% the multiplier is 79.99

Applying to loss of earnings of, say, £25k per annum the loss of earnings claim would be calculated as £25,000 x the multiplier applicable.

At 2.5% it is a total of £773,000 as an up front lump sum. At -0.75% on the same basis it is £1,999,750.

Quite a useful summary is here if you're interested:
https://cbcinsurance.co.uk/uploads/news/The%20Ogden%20Discount%20Rate%20-0.75%20Illustration%20.pdf

Hope that clarifies Thumbs Up
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Nobby you've dropped this onto another thread and I think it was for me on this one? I've quoted it over here anyway because it's relevant - hope you don't mind.

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It'll have to take someone to need £100k a year and have an expected remaining lifetime of 45 years.

How many of them do you get?

https://i.imgur.com/ct2JLXA.jpg


Afraid you're incorrect here. Let's just stick with Loss of Earnings and ignore future care etc just to keep things more simple than they could be if we add in further rates and adjustments.

These are the latest Ogden Tables:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/599837/Actuarial_tables_for_use_in_personal_injury_and_fatal_accident_cases_7th_edition_Supplementary_Tables.pdf

The discount rate isn't a direct multiple figure used in the calculation. The discount rate relates to which set of multipliers are used from the table.

If we take a 25 year old male and look at table 1 for pecuniary loss - you'll see that at 2.5% rate the multiplier is 30.92 whereas at -.075% the multiplier is 79.99

Applying to loss of earnings of, say, £25k per annum the loss of earnings claim would be calculated as £25,000 x the multiplier applicable.

At 2.5% it is a total of £773,000 as an up front lump sum. At -0.75% on the same basis it is £1,999,750.

Quite a useful summary is here if you're interested:
https://cbcinsurance.co.uk/uploads/news/The%20Ogden%20Discount%20Rate%20-0.75%20Illustration%20.pdf

Hope that clarifies Thumbs Up


Thanks, yes I posted on the wrong thread.

Table 1 is for loss of life. How much do insurance companies typically pay out for that?
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:37 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pecuniary loss FOR life, not OF life, Nobby.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:41 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Pecuniary loss FOR life, not OF life, Nobby.


My mistake.

How much is full care a year?
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:47 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:

How much is full care a year?


Depends on the complexity / needs. It's not uncommon for a relatively serious injury for the care to exceed the loss of earnings but it would depend hugely on the extent of recovery and mobility.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:47 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, for the rate to at least double (so it ends up at £6M rather than £3m) you need to be under 20 when you get quadrospazzed.

I appreciate that 16-20 are a high risk group, but they tend to be at fault and so no pay out.
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
So, for the rate to at least double (so it ends up at £6M rather than £3m) you need to be under 20 when you get quadrospazzed.

I appreciate that 16-20 are a high risk group, but they tend to be at fault and so no pay out.


It's not as simple as that Nobby. There's lots more to the calculation. It'd be a long day workshop to run you through it all. But you can see from the example just how marked the step-change in the multiplier is and can get a sense from that the size of the issue.

16-20 year old age group is actually one of the most dangerous for insurers, not least. Fault is a loose word when liability is concerned. I have a seriously injured young lad who is 18 currently receiving rehabilitation who was injured by trying to be a banksman for a reversing lorry in the yard. He stood between the yard wall and the side of the lorry and when it started to swing in. Common sense dictates you don't put yourself between a rig and a solid object but he'd never been trained to be a banksman and he's a young lad with next to no experience of the dangers which can occur within a yard like that.

Likewise I have a 17 year old girl who injured herself in the most ridiculous of ways (I won't go into detail) but because she is 17 and considered a minor, the bar that duty of care that our client had to her whilst she was on their premises is increased and as such they will be held fully liable with no realistic expectation of contributory negligence to attach.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 17:28 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
I have a 17 year old girl who injured herself in the most ridiculous of ways (I won't go into detail)
Oh go on...
...then I might understand at least something you two are banging on about
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 08 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't wipe down the pole?

I'd come to the belief that Terry Teenager was a big risk because he's likely to wrap his mum's Clio round a tree with four budding rocket surgeons in it.

In the Clio, not the tree. That would be squirrels. Litigious little immigrant bastards.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 09 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: Insurance. WTF is going on nowadays? Reply with quote

AldridgePrior wrote:
Took out insurance with Bikesure. Now, I know before other companies have asked for details like proof of no claims etc


when you did the quote was it
1. on a comparison web site ?
2. did you make multiple adjustments to see how this affected the price?
3. have to go back and correct because of errors in the original quote.. ie wrong drop down selected ?
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 09 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't the rehabilitation of offenders act stop that?

arry wrote:
Mildly related and topical. Quote I've just had on the Porsche as that's due in a few weeks. Very cheap it be.

From a brokers who are an authorised representative (ie not FCA approved in their own right) of an MGA (an underwriting agency that underwrite using another company's capital carrying no risk themselves) who have a binder (a contract which allows them to bind business on behalf of another company) in place with an underwriting agency in London (a 'front' to get round offshore trading) who have delegated authority (same as binder, just wider remit) from a Maltese based underwriting subsidiary (who do nothing but provide a form of FSA regulation - FSA not FCA as it's regulated in Malta), who ultimately cede (pass) the risk into a Qatar based reinsurance company.

Jesus. How the layperson has any idea who they're actually insured with. Just goes to show there's still a lot of cheap offshore capacity being used despite the busts of Enterprise this year.


Quite the gordian knot.
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 09 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jmoan wrote:
Wouldn't the rehabilitation of offenders act stop that?


Insurers only ask for convictions which are not spent. ROA after Laspo has brought the disclosure period down quite a bit TBH which, coupled with the reluctance to actually hand out proper custodial sentences these days, does mean we end up with a few more wronguns on the book by default.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 09 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

These conditions they have decide to apply after you'd paid them, I'd be minded to ask them to send photographs of a printout of them, taken from the front, the back, and from each edge.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to link directly to their complains procedure, but they don't publish what it is, which is itself cause for a complaint.

https://customers.bikesure.co.uk/contact-us/
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: insurance Reply with quote

Under £40 fully comp......
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