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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
A China-esque European superstate would be great. I would love that.

.


What would one of those be?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
A China-esque European superstate would be great. I would love that.

.


What would one of those be?


A proper, centrally managed superstate where 'the good of The People' comes first.

Unlike the current setup which is a bunch of quite different nations with their own governments, their own elections, their own economic strengths, economic controls, immigration controls, no truly shared language being taught as mandatory at the continental level via a common exam structure, etc etc... all being told, "You're in a trade bloc together so play nice."
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


A proper, centrally managed superstate where 'the good of The People' comes first.

Unlike the current setup which is a bunch of quite different nations with their own governments, their own elections, their own economic strengths, economic controls, immigration controls, no truly shared language being taught as mandatory at the continental level via a common exam structure, etc etc... all being told, "You're in a trade bloc together so play nice."


hmm , do the people come first though? isn't it the usual story of those at the top making a fortune facebok etc banned
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:

hmm , do the people come first though? isn't it the usual story of those at the top making a fortune facebok etc banned


You mean in terms of the way China is doing it?

Well there are still super wealthy folk over in communist paradise. The difference is the government is still focused on ensuring national prosperity is actually national. Infrastructure investment everywhere, cheap university education, state-funded projects aimed at boosting the economy where it's needed (I work in one of ten huge software parks planned and funded entirely by the government which, after completion, rapidly filled with small, medium and even global/corporate sized entities. Makes the UK's handful of programmers in Cambridge and London look like very small dry indeed).

Seen a few interesting China-related questions on Quora lately. One asked what it's like to be a member of the CCP. A lot of answers were from younger more internet-savvy folk who said they had a parent in the CCP. They noted that their childhood saw a lot of interesting gifts and bribery sorts of things as their dad (usually the dad) went off on official business to various regions. However they all noted that recently the gifts have completely dried up. The anti-corruption drive has had quite an impact. At the 5-year party conference in October, Xi Jinping specifically said, "Don't expect an easy ride if you want to work for the government." Public sector pay is low (even after a recent 'huge pay-rise') and the premier himself only takes about 10'000 RMB a month which is peanuts compared to a big earner (foreign English teachers earn more!).

This is the kind of superstate, and leadership, I'd be quite fine with.

Facebook banning is a different matter altogether. "Muh internet freedoms" is a bit pathetic when you stand back and look at the bigger picture. Chinese people simply don't care about it. To give an idea of the magnitude of internet censorship in China, how about considering how much of an uproar there was when western ISPs were forced to block major torrent websites. Nobody really cares. Meanwhile, torrents are fast and plentiful in the middle kingdom.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:

hmm , do the people come first though? isn't it the usual story of those at the top making a fortune facebok etc banned


You mean in terms of the way China is doing it?

Well there are still super wealthy folk over in communist paradise. The difference is the government is still focused on ensuring national prosperity is actually national. Infrastructure investment everywhere, cheap university education, state-funded projects aimed at boosting the economy where it's needed (I work in one of ten huge software parks planned and funded entirely by the government which, after completion, rapidly filled with small, medium and even global/corporate sized entities. Makes the UK's handful of programmers in Cambridge and London look like very small dry indeed).

Seen a few interesting China-related questions on Quora lately. One asked what it's like to be a member of the CCP. A lot of answers were from younger more internet-savvy folk who said they had a parent in the CCP. They noted that their childhood saw a lot of interesting gifts and bribery sorts of things as their dad (usually the dad) went off on official business to various regions. However they all noted that recently the gifts have completely dried up. The anti-corruption drive has had quite an impact. At the 5-year party conference in October, Xi Jinping specifically said, "Don't expect an easy ride if you want to work for the government." Public sector pay is low (even after a recent 'huge pay-rise') and the premier himself only takes about 10'000 RMB a month which is peanuts compared to a big earner (foreign English teachers earn more!).

This is the kind of superstate, and leadership, I'd be quite fine with.

Facebook banning is a different matter altogether. "Muh internet freedoms" is a bit pathetic when you stand back and look at the bigger picture. Chinese people simply don't care about it. To give an idea of the magnitude of internet censorship in China, how about considering how much of an uproar there was when western ISPs were forced to block major torrent websites. Nobody really cares. Meanwhile, torrents are fast and plentiful in the middle kingdom.


Is all the investment in it's people not more to do with nationalism and their strive to dominate the world ?

I cant see any reason for running zombie factories other than to put industries in the west out of business until the Chinese are the only ones running the shop, whilst the thick free traders over here that were happy to bring in all the cheap crap, start backpedaling when they relise the Chinese have stuffed them
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:28 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does Murica work? Several States within the States? Each with their own governing bodies and tax rules etc?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
Is all the investment in it's people not more to do with nationalism and their strive to dominate the world ?


Nope. There are two things at play here.

The mandate of heaven and also the middle income trap.

The Mandate of heaven is very similar to the Queen/King of England. The leader/emperor whatever has a divine right to rule with two caveats. That living standards increase over time. The emperors of time did this by Wu Wei and also have as many blessings (children) as you want. The problem is they kept hitting the Malthusian problem repeatedly. The CCP is nothing more than the old bureaucracy that existed since before the Qing for 5000 years they merely wear suits and ties. So the CCP does exactly this to keep people content they improve living standards. If living standards don't increase and or there is a massive natural disaster then... well heaven is angry with the emperor and you're free to overthrow them.

The middle income trap - In short, once a nation gets to a stage of development they get stuck there. So to avoid it they are developing central Asia and South America. Much like post WW2 and the US Marshall plan. If they get stuck there well see above.



Domination is a funny one as individuals look at the PRC with their own lens. Where themselves they did awful things and they expect others to do awful things if the position is reversed.

Except history says nope. Zheng He (the origin of Sinbad the Sailor) got to Africa about 600 years ago. He landed with 25,000 men. The history books says he took a giraffe did some trade and went home. The absence of a Chinese colony in Africa is pretty good evidence of this. A small village though does have traces of Han DNA.

Hernan Cortez on the other hand landed in Mexico 500 years ago with 500 men and went on an extermination spree. As did the colonists to the US.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 22:00 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Wasn't really working that way though. Unlike the US, China and old Soviet Bloc, western Europe doesn't have anything other than skin colour to unite each nation (and that's pushing it a bit too). Not even a common language or culture.


This is a very valid point to me. I have been to many European countries and I have worked and studied with many European people and the one thing that stands out is their "foreignness". The way they do and even think about things.

It's not only the language barrier. I'd go so far as to say there are enormous social and cultural differences even between the UK and Eire.

The European people I have felt most comfortable with are the Icelandic, the Norwegians, the Dutch and the Portugese but even their mindset and outlook is very different to our own, what goes down here wouldn't go down there and vice versa (well, not the Dutch, they are just chilled in general, but again, probably too permissive for most Brits.).
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
Rick and Morty is also amazing.

Why's the old guy always vomiting? Made it quite hard to watch for me Sick

Lord Percy wrote:
Facebook banning is a different matter altogether. "Muh internet freedoms" is a bit pathetic when you stand back and look at the bigger picture. Chinese people simply don't care about it. To give an idea of the magnitude of internet censorship in China, how about considering how much of an uproar there was when western ISPs were forced to block major torrent websites. Nobody really cares. Meanwhile, torrents are fast and plentiful in the middle kingdom.

What bigger picture? They shouldn't be blocking any site (anywhere) but the reasons and scale are completely different. The hilarious thing about the Torrent ISP blocks is that most people have moved over to streaming, so I can still steal shit Dance! Google Tiananmen Square for me please Wink
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say is I've been all over Europe, I work with Germans, Austrians, Greeks, Polish and Romanians, my girlfriend for the past ten years is German, and I have far more in common with them all than my American colleagues, never mind my Chinese coworkers. The step change in culture between north Africa and Spain, or between USA and UK, is far bigger than that between European countries.

YMMV. I know where I stand.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Not that we needed it but confirmation of how the remoaners mind works. The word traitor comes to mind, the rest of what you wrote is a complete fantasy.

I feel obliged to remind people at this point that I am Irish, and yes, strongly pro-EU. Not just because it is an imperative to avoid domination by Britain the way any Brexit Britain will be dominated by the EU, but because the blindingly obvious lesson of the 20th century was that nationalism is evil. There's nothing special or evil in Germany or Germans that led to the wars; it was nationalism, tribalism, the feeling of kinship in opposition to the Other.

And yes, I voted remain in the referendum, as is my right, just as British can vote in Ireland. But I don't mind having the option to wander off when things go south on this island.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 23:14 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
M.C wrote:
Not that we needed it but confirmation of how the remoaners mind works. The word traitor comes to mind, the rest of what you wrote is a complete fantasy.

I feel obliged to remind people at this point that I am Irish, and yes, strongly pro-EU. Not just because it is an imperative to avoid domination by Britain the way any Brexit Britain will be dominated by the EU, but because the blindingly obvious lesson of the 20th century was that nationalism is evil. There's nothing special or evil in Germany or Germans that led to the wars; it was nationalism, tribalism, the feeling of kinship in opposition to the Other.

And yes, I voted remain in the referendum, as is my right, just as British can vote in Ireland. But I don't mind having the option to wander off when things go south on this island.

Do you not feel that yourself is entranced by a type of nationalism/ pro EU tribalism that you want Britain to have a bad deal?

Because if that's not something of the abnormal i do not know what is.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
I don't mind having the option to wander off when things go south on this island.

Why not now?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 02:24 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:

And yes, I voted remain in the referendum, as is my right, just as British can vote in Ireland. But I don't mind having the option to wander off when things go south on this island.


Are you talking from the Eire or Northern Irish perspective?

I ask because I didn't know I could go vote on stuff coming out of the Oireachtas. And me a supporter of Oliver Cromwell Cool
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 08:59 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
You can't just create the United States of Europe (USE).

Need moar Stukas.


Roger, look back at every single project the UK, amongst others, tried before. Playing chess with nations they knew next to nothing about. Force is never the answer. People, or at least the majority, have to want to be a part of something to make it actually work.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 09:30 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
The word traitor comes to mind


Ahh the brexiter buzzword used to describe anyone that doesn't agree. You are the Daily Mail and I claim my £5.


M.C wrote:
I mean our little union has stopped all the ill feeling between nations hasn't it, or has it emboldened the Scottish/Welsh, despite the benefits they receive?


No they still hate the English.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
I feel obliged to remind people at this point that I am Irish, and yes, strongly pro-EU. Not just because it is an imperative to avoid domination by Britain the way any Brexit Britain will be dominated by the EU, but because the blindingly obvious lesson of the 20th century was that nationalism is evil. There's nothing special or evil in Germany or Germans that led to the wars; it was nationalism, tribalism, the feeling of kinship in opposition to the Other.

And yes, I voted remain in the referendum, as is my right, just as British can vote in Ireland. But I don't mind having the option to wander off when things go south on this island.


WWII was a result of a long oppression and sanctions against Germany after the WWI. Poor people, that have nothing are far easier to manipulate. The Nationalism wasn't that important in that.

A history lesson: After the WWI the Allies, pretty much France, United Kingdom and Russia demanded War reparations, as that was their right as the victorious parties. Every defeteated party had to make payments (money, gold, raw materials, goods...). It was their right, nothing wrong there.

A Treaty was born, and the defeated parties were going to pay, but ...

... and here's the fun part: Austria, Hungary and Turkey had to pay nothing (because reasons), Bulgaria only had to pay a fraction of what it was told to. And Germans, well, Germans had to pay it all (sort of).

For instance UK officialy demanded way more, than they then wanted from Germans, to trick civilians in the UK and France into believing Germany was being heavily punished for the war.

The, Germans could not keep up the payment plan, so French decided to occupy their territory (google Dawes Plan). International loans were given to Germany, so they could keep up paying and calm the French. That still was not enough (google Young Plan), tl; dr they had a new payment plan that would last till 1988. But, as you might know, in the early 30's Germans went bankrupt and later on due to this event the rest of the reparations were cancelled.

Now, I'm going to give you the TL; DR version of why the WWII happend:
1) Germany amongts others lost the WWI
2) Germany and only Germany had to pay war reparations
3) French were cxnts
4) UK wanted a complete economic destruction of Germany
5) German gov. had their ideas about what's right and what's not (other defeated nations didn't have to pay a thing)
6) People in Germany got pissed, obviously (they were poor, the economy was in the crapper and French with Brits wouldn't stop poking them)
7) When people have nothing, they keen to Nationalism
8) NSDAP (eng: National Socialist German Workers' Party)
9) Hitler
10) WWII

---------
Germany had the wealth to pay all the reparations, but they also had it's Nationalist party and their own Speaker who could say whatever the masses wanted to hear. Plus, the fact the rest of the defeated nations didn't have to pay a thing also did not help.

Looking back, the WWII is the French's fault. So there is something special and evil, that led Germany to the WWII. Thinking
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PostPosted: 10:35 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
The hilarious thing about the Torrent ISP blocks is that most people have moved over to streaming, so I can still steal shit Dance! Google Tiananmen Square for me please Wink


Or use a VPN to connect, select your movies, turn VPN off and bingo. Smile
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:29 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we're saying rabid EU federalism is the OPPOSITE of nationalism?

Interesting.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:

Is all the investment in it's people not more to do with nationalism and their strive to dominate the world ?


Well I can again turn to Quora for stuff I've read recently.

One question that kept popping up was, "What do Africans think of China's business on their continent?" Most answers were very pragmatic, saying they know it's not done out of pure benevolence, but all feel like it's very much a two-way partnership, rather than the old European colonial style. Accepting foreign investment was certainly beneficial for other previously poor nations, e.g. China itself - which leads onto the next point -

Another question asked if China is 'grateful' for the investment it received from the west after the internal economic reforms began. Again, the responses were pragmatic - China has nothing to be grateful for, the investment only happened because western financial and business interests saw something to gain from being there. Another 'two-way partnership' situation. It was also noted that foreign investment was not solely from western nations. The whole world moved to invest in China after the economic reforms. This leads onto a final point -

This will sound very Ithcy-esque but.. western arrogance shines through when the China topic comes up. "China is bound to do bad things because that's what always happens when nations get powerful - we should know! And China should be thankful to us for the investment we the powerful west philanthropically handed to them from the good of our hearts! If they succeed, it is only from standing on the shoulders of us noble giants!"

Quote:

I cant see any reason for running zombie factories other than to put industries in the west out of business until the Chinese are the only ones running the shop, whilst the thick free traders over here that were happy to bring in all the cheap crap, start backpedaling when they relise the Chinese have stuffed them


But it isn't about zombie factories. It's far wiser than that. For example I just said I work in one of ten huge software parks established intentionally by the government. The one in Chengdu where I am is the largest and employs some 35'000 people, all degree educated, mostly in software engineering the likes of which is barely taught at British universities (computer science isn't software engineering). It's moved swiftly on from zombie factories. Cheap tat isn't the prime goal now, the goal is to steal skilled work from the west, and it's most certainly going to happen.

So that's another reason why I'd be all for a one-government superstate with proper long term economic management. It works.

And yes you're right about idiot western free trade ideology finally coming to back to bite its proponents in the arse.

M.C wrote:
Google Tiananmen Square for me please


This is another one of those absurd beating sticks people use. "Tiananmen Square protest info isn't accessible in China, therefore the country must be overall bad."

Meanwhile the current vogue in the west is to self-censor the truth by labelling anything and everything as 'fake news' if it doesn't suit the desired narrative.

Also consider the official secrets acts of most sovereign nations. If something is censored, you just accept it as being censored. Weird how it's only evil commie socialist nations that are roundly condemned for withholding what they deem to be sensitive info.
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kawakid
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PostPosted: 12:26 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I ask because I didn't know I could go vote on stuff coming out of the Oireachtas. And me a supporter of Oliver Cromwell Cool


Yup you can.

Ironically my wife is Irish and she voted leave, though she doesn't really care about politics, though she did vote conservative as she got a 40th birthday card from our local Tory mp.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:



Quote:

I cant see any reason for running zombie factories other than to put industries in the west out of business until the Chinese are the only ones running the shop, whilst the thick free traders over here that were happy to bring in all the cheap crap, start backpedaling when they relise the Chinese have stuffed them


But it isn't about zombie factories. It's far wiser than that. For example I just said I work in one of ten huge software parks established intentionally by the government. The one in Chengdu where I am is the largest and employs some 35'000 people, all degree educated, mostly in software engineering the likes of which is barely taught at British universities (computer science isn't software engineering). It's moved swiftly on from zombie factories. Cheap tat isn't the prime goal now, the goal is to steal skilled work from the west, and it's most certainly going to happen.

So that's another reason why I'd be all for a one-government superstate with proper long term economic management. It works.

And yes you're right about idiot western free trade ideology finally coming to back to bite its proponents in the arse.
.


I'm on about Steel and stuff like that, where they're dumping on the market at below cost price

Stealing todays workers is tomorrow's politicians problem is the west
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Val
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
You can't just create the United States of Europe (USE). We have nothing in common.


Says the czech guy using English language on UK forum.

Right we have nothing in common...

Except everything - we ALL share our common European history, life and culture.

WTAF Rhyno?

I see two options for Europe:

1. To continue with the nationalistic jingoistic nation state model - we all know how that ended with WW1 nad WW2.
2. To have some kind of EU federation based on our common values.

Having said that I'm not holding my breath here Laughing

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And somewhere from the dim ages of history the truth dawned upon Europe that the morrow would obliterate the plans of today.

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