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Remainers. Euro superstate: in or out?

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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:

Except everything - we ALL share our common European history, life and culture.


Common. European. History?

Where did you come up with such an odd notion?

Not even the first hominids to populate Europe have the same origins.

Slavs, Caucasians, Goths, Danes, Gauls, Romans, Moors, Greeks, Huns, Celts, Franks, Picts, Britons, Normans, Macedonians, Roma, Mongols...

Europe has always been a region populated by varied and often warring peoples of dispirate origins. As evidenced by the huge range of languages and cultural practices to be found across such a small area.

Here's a bit of info on our "common" European History.
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/

The people even LOOK different. Stand a Swede next to an Italian a German and a Pole.

In fairness, the British are probably the most mixed race Europeans of the lot.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:


1. To continue with the nationalistic jingoistic nation state model - we all know how that ended with WW1 nad WW2


I find it quite sad that many Europeans see this as the only outcome of individual nation states, even after so many years of peace. I guess it must be ingrained in the psyche of those who's countries were overrun by the horror of war. But a European super state won't banish all war from Europe forever. That is what Europeans apparently haven't learned. The bigger the EU grows, the less secure Russia feels, for one thing.

As to "jingoistic", why do assume that a pride in one's country means you have to align yourself aggressively against others? Another thing you continentals still haven't figured out it seems Sad

Val, I know you are very frightened of something. But you should relax and live your life. I don't think the UK has prepared the death squads for EU nationals here yet Smile
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
Says the czech guy using English language on UK forum.

Right we have nothing in common...


I am a fairly educated man and I could use English right away, although I'm not the best example of what average people in Europe are like. I know it seems very easy to you, to force your language upon people, but it's not.

Val wrote:
Except everything - we ALL share our common European history, life and culture.


The thing is, we don't. What exactly do we share?

Do you mean the 1918-1939 when for English the Czechoslovakia was a fake country based on injustice (territorial). Or the 1939 when English with other mates decided to give the Czech republic (Slovaks went full Nazi) to Hitler, thinking they might prevent war in Europe?

That sure was cool enough to call it common history. Razz
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
The thing is, we don't. What exactly do we share?
We've had several centuries' worth of practice at killing each other?

To answer the original question posted, I voted remain, because extant trade deals are more reliable than nebulously-defined trade deals that are yet to be. I'm not in favour of federalism overall, because we simply aren't very good at it. Until we can remove the need for political grandstanding from things like taxation and resource allocation, it'll continue to be a method for pissing off the largest number of people, as opposed to providing functional state apparatus for the largest number of people.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the bloody remoaners are using more inflammatory words to try and make us, who actually have pride in our country rather than this love of the Euro superstate, feel guilty about patriotism.

Jingoistic, nationalistic, tribalism even Nazi (and that's when they aren't calling us racist).

We signed up to a trading bloc, not a federal conglomeration. Look at this country now and tell me it's better than it was 40 years ago when we joined this European rubbish dump.

No trade deficit, no NHS problems, free dentistry, working schools, no religious shite, no common agricultural policy, bent bananas Thumbs Up no Schengen rubbish. No propping up every little state that wants to jump on the gravytrain.

And perhaps we can send back Irish pikeys, sorry travellers, once we are out. Cool
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

No trade deficit, no NHS problems, free dentistry, working schools, no religious shite, no common agricultural policy, bent bananas Thumbs Up no Schengen rubbish. No propping up every little state that wants to jump on the gravytrain.


Lowest recorded unemployment rate.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
M.C wrote:
The word traitor comes to mind


Ahh the brexiter buzzword used to describe anyone that doesn't agree. You are the Daily Mail and I claim my £5.

What would you call someone deliberately wanting to sabotage something?

ScaredyCat wrote:
M.C wrote:
I mean our little union has stopped all the ill feeling between nations hasn't it, or has it emboldened the Scottish/Welsh, despite the benefits they receive?


No they still hate the English.

Tell me you didn't just... you did Laughing And you go on about my comprehension?

Lord Percy wrote:
M.C wrote:
Google Tiananmen Square for me please


This is another one of those absurd beating sticks people use. "Tiananmen Square protest info isn't accessible in China, therefore the country must be overall bad."

Meanwhile the current vogue in the west is to self-censor the truth by labelling anything and everything as 'fake news' if it doesn't suit the desired narrative.

Also consider the official secrets acts of most sovereign nations. If something is censored, you just accept it as being censored. Weird how it's only evil commie socialist nations that are roundly condemned for withholding what they deem to be sensitive info.

You mean Trump explaining away sexual harassment claims? Exactly how is history sensitive information? I can look up the Iraq war protests, see how many people were against it, how the government lied to an entire population.

chickenstrip wrote:
Val wrote:


1. To continue with the nationalistic jingoistic nation state model - we all know how that ended with WW1 nad WW2


I find it quite sad that many Europeans see this as the only outcome of individual nation states, even after so many years of peace.

I find it utterly retarded. I missed the part where our armies are goose-stepping through the streets and we're referring to May as mein fuhrer. It's the pursuit of these super states that lead to war.

No one has said we're the master race, or that we're better than our European cousins, we have just as a nation (through a democratic process) decided that we don't want to be a part of the EU experiment anymore.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
We signed up to a trading bloc, not a federal conglomeration. Look at this country now and tell me it's better than it was 40 years ago when we joined this European rubbish dump.


Yes, you joined a trading block, but you (your representatives) made it / helped to make it into what it is now. Even Farage can admit that.

40 years ago you were probably young, careless, happy, not caring about news of any sort. Even here, in the Land of Beer, people say everything was better during Communism, was it thought?

Polarbear wrote:
...bent bananas...


This again, huh? So for the very last time, the EU regulation says exactly the same what the UK regulation did prior to that. The regulation requires that bananas of the highest quality classification not have abnormal curvature. You can still sell/buy bent bananas, but not for the full price of a ''posh'' one.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Val wrote:
Except everything - we ALL share our common European history, life and culture.


And history? history?! are you serious? Or are we now trying to pretend Germany, supported by Italy and a few others, didn't invade other European countries twice, starting 2 world wars?


I've already had my tin foil hat moment and came to a conclusion the French caused the WWII. It's always the fleeing type, that starts a conflict and then runs away. Thinking
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
I voted remain, because extant trade deals are more reliable than nebulously-defined trade deals that are yet to be.



We have Val's fear of history, and now we have your fear of the future. And to think Britain used to be a brave, confident country Sad


Anyway, as far as trade goes, China will look after us... Thinking
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
What would you call someone deliberately wanting to sabotage something?


Sabotage? Really? Wishing ill will is not sabotage unless you believe that wishing actually works.

M.C wrote:
Tell me you didn't just... you did Laughing And you go on about my comprehension?


Your spelling and grammer are atrocious as well as your comprehension Laughing . Thing is, it's difficult to tell if you're being sarcastic or a brexiter. You need to use
Code:
<not being sarcastic>
tags 90% of the time.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
Your spelling and grammer are atrocious as well as your comprehension Laughing . Thing is, it's difficult to tell if you're being sarcastic or a brexiter. You need to use
Code:
<not being sarcastic>
tags 90% of the time.

Is that my grammer or grammar?

If someone poses a rhetorical question, which actually had the answer in it, then I think it's fairly obvious what they mean Thinking
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
we ALL share our common European history, life and culture.

Fascist. Diversity is our strength. Adding tens of millions of New Europeans with regressive, repressive stone age attitudes just makes us more progressive and free.
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
We have Val's fear of history, and now we have your fear of the future. And to think Britain used to be a brave, confident country Sad

It's not fear so much as a realisation that we're not really hugely relevant on the international stage these days. We can't really rely on America to have our back at the moment, being a nuclear power isn't that big of a deal anymore, and we've just alienated the nearest big trading bloc. Russia seems more interested in laughing at all the international discord that's currently occurring, China has their heads firmly in the sand with regards to their impending economic implosion, India is too busy having the constant slapfight with Pakistan and the various African states (while some are finding success at the moment) are generally struggling to get their collective shit together. Whereabouts does the slot for a plucky island nation with diminishing political clout and a service-based economy reside?

There's nothing cowardly about acknowledging a shit situation, and I have no interest in hiding under a rock and just shitflinging until it all comes crashing down - AFAIK (and as I said in the initial brexit thread) this is the hand that's been dealt, so I'm going to make it work for me as best I can. You'll note that I've not made any overtures of leaving the country, nor have I attacked people who voted pro-leave. Quiet tenacity in the face of adversity is what'll benefit us the most at this point, not bellicose ranting á la Boris Johnson.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
we're not really hugely relevant on the international stage these days.

Only the 5th largest economy in the world. Sad

nowhere.elysium wrote:
We can't really rely on America to have our back at the moment

Thanks to deliberate alienation by our Remoaner premier.

nowhere.elysium wrote:
we've just alienated the nearest big trading bloc.

By giving them everything that they've demanded?

The only thing that can defeat Britain is British defeatism.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
And to think Britain used to be a brave, confident country Sad


Britain, or rather England, was brave when there was no internet, nor social media. English just walked wherever, said by the decree of the Queen/King, his/her majesty, ''that you've never met or knew existed but trust us she/he does exist'', this now is a part of the United Kingdom.

And all that base on the international laws English themselves helped make. Imagine if this happened today, facetube, youbook, twater, CNN, BBC, all full of it. Wait a minute, Crimea? Thinking

Fun fact, did you know English not only beat Scotland to submission, but they also made wearing kilts in Scotland illegal? That's how brave/cheeky English once were. Wink
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
nowhere.elysium wrote:
we're not really hugely relevant on the international stage these days.

Only the 5th largest economy in the world. Sad

For how long, if the big banks decide that we're no longer the gateway to Europe?
Rogerborg wrote:
nowhere.elysium wrote:
We can't really rely on America to have our back at the moment

Thanks to deliberate alienation by our Remoaner premier.

Yeah, for all of her multitudinous failings, I can't really blame her for wanting sod all to do with Trump.
Rogerborg wrote:
nowhere.elysium wrote:
we've just alienated the nearest big trading bloc.

By giving them everything that they've demanded?

Look beyond the immediate clusterfuck that is the Brexit 'negotiation'. What benefit is there for the EU to continue to deal with us favourably in the wake of Brexit? If the financial world decides we're no longer the powerhouse that we've traditionally been (and this, admittedly is the crux of my concern about Brexit), then we have very little to offer the EU in future. As such, we would become something of an irrelevance.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:13 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
What benefit is there for the EU to continue to deal with us favourably in the wake of Brexit?


Why did they get so upset when we decided to leave?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
What benefit is there for the EU to continue to deal with us favourably in the wake of Brexit?

The £60 billion more of stuff that we buy from them than they buy from us every year?

Even Full Pravda can't deny that, although they do a good job of huffing and puffing and saying "But, but, numbers and facts don't mean anything when you feel the Correct feels."
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
nowhere.elysium wrote:
What benefit is there for the EU to continue to deal with us favourably in the wake of Brexit?

The £60 billion more of stuff that we buy from them than they buy from us every year?

Even Full Pravda can't deny that, although they do a good job of huffing and puffing and saying "But, but, numbers and facts don't mean anything when you feel the Correct feels."


Sooo, „UK exports to those other EU countries are worth around 13% of the value of our economy, whereas for the EU it’s only 3-4%.“
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Sooo, „UK exports to those other EU countries are worth around 13% of the value of our economy, whereas for the EU it’s only 3-4%.“

Yes, if you view it the Correct way, then more is less, less is more, right is left, and Val is right.
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
nowhere.elysium wrote:
What benefit is there for the EU to continue to deal with us favourably in the wake of Brexit?


Why did they get so upset when we decided to leave?

Eh, fair point.

RogerBorg wrote:
The £60 billion more of stuff that we buy from them than they buy from us every year?

Even Full Pravda can't deny that, although they do a good job of huffing and puffing and saying "But, but, numbers and facts don't mean anything when you feel the Correct feels."

Given how wages are totally failing to keep up with inflation, I don't see that staying at £60 billion indefinitely.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, the same circular arguments.... So predictable. Mind you, it is a small gene pool on this particular forum and an even smaller one on this particular element.
I voted leave. Not from any particular aversion to the EU experiment, to be honest, its not done too badly, but, latterly, the cracks have started to show. It has expanded well beyond its original remit and in the process has begun to do more harm than good, (Greece as a specific example). It needed shaking up. The British political system has been long overdue for a reset. Far as I'm concerned, job done.
Pre referendum, nobody, not even the proposers had any real idea what they wanted and what would happen (in the event of a leave vote). The shock of rejection of the status quo has disrupted all the comfortable certainties. Even the thick bastards in the street have started to take notice.
We have looked over the edge of the precipice and its a long way down. If Alabama has come to its senses, maybe we can too......
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean we should make unrefutable accusations of historical sex abuse against any conservative candidate, using comically forged documents that wouldn't fool an infant, but which do a good job of swaying infantilised voters?

Or did you have something less loathesome in mind?
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