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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Remainers. Euro superstate: in or out? Reply with quote

We have a thread discussing the ins and outs of the brexit/remain argument. Brexiteers would obviously prefer not to be a part of it, but it seems to be a subject avoided by remainers. If we remained within the EU, being absorbed in to the German-Franco project of a single European state is inevitable. Lay your cards on the deck. Is this what you want?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say a single European state is inevitable, I say Germany is going to have to bribe a lot of member states to make this happen, OR face the complete disintegration of the EU.
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 14:30 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't the majority already being "bribed" by being net takers?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
You say a single European state is inevitable

OP is Martin Schultz?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
You say a single European state is inevitable, I say Germany is going to have to bribe a lot of member states to make this happen, OR face the complete disintegration of the EU.


Or they could do what they did the last 2 times and invade.

All they'd need is an EU wide army, or control over Dutch tank regiments to kick things off.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
You say a single European state is inevitable, I say Germany is going to have to bribe a lot of member states to make this happen, OR face the complete disintegration of the EU.


Or they could do what they did the last 2 times and invade.

All they'd need is an EU wide army, or control over Dutch tank regiments to kick things off.


What 2 times are you talking about?
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 16:01 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/47425316.jpg
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
I say Germany is going to have to bribe a lot of member states to make this happen.

If you look at the EU budget they already are.
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kippyzona
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If we remained within the EU, being absorbed in to the German-Franco project of a single European state

Why not an Anglo- German led superstate?
You gotta be in it to win it.
Or we go it alone and get told what to do by the yanks and the Indians.
I believe we have absolutely no voting rights in either of those countries.
Of course we could always just become the 51st state of Trumpland which most golf players would be over the moon with.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/47425316.jpg


I rewatched that episode recently... really hard to watch it now, classic or not.

It is basically a mentally ill and toxic person being supported/enabled by begrudging acquiantances to be unpleasant to various people.

Genuinely very strange to watch it these days. Try it, I dare you.
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
panrider_uk wrote:
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/47425316.jpg


I rewatched that episode recently... really hard to watch it now, classic or not.

It is basically a mentally ill and toxic person being supported/enabled by begrudging acquiantances to be unpleasant to various people.

Genuinely very strange to watch it these days. Try it, I dare you.


Try just enjoying it instead of analysing it and you may find it quite funny.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:


Genuinely very strange to watch it these days. Try it, I dare you.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife

Is the trope you're looking for.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 17:48 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be an Anglo/Franco/German project had the UK stayed.

I've been reading lots of analysis on the topic, and I've come around to the view that the seeds of Brexit were sown when the UK didn't join the Euro. The Euro created an in-group that had effective (qualified) majority, and their interests ultimately steered the union's decision-making. The UK could have tactical wins, but without being part of the Euro, it was never going to control the strategy.

The EU's purpose is (a) to avoid war in Europe by ensuring a high degree of social, political and economic integration, and (b) present a united front for multiple mid-level powers competing in a world dominated by superpowers (USA, USSR back in the day, China increasingly now). It was not and never was a project to make its constituents wealthier via gains from trade - that was the UK's goal, and it was very successful in creating the common market. But then the UK pushed hard to expand east and increase free movement of labour, and reaped the political rewards a decade later.

I think the single greatest cause of European wars is the concept of the nation state, and dissolving the nation state into a Europe of regions should be the long-term strategy. Nationalism is only a step away from fascism, and fascism is fantastic fun: you really feel like you're part of the team, united against the Other, sharing a common bond with your brothers. Populists will always be able to harness nationalism as long as it is felt strongly by the population. So it must, ultimately, be eroded away. I think that's best done by increasing contact with other people, whether it's business or pleasure, work or education, friendship or marriage: but above all destroy the notion of the Other before it ever sets in.

I believe in subsidiarity, but am also acutely aware of the game theory advantages to people who lower standards. This can force decisions to be made at a union level because delegating them to individual nations would encourage a race to the bottom, where nobody wins. The simplest examples are fishing policies, but also tax (I support the common consolidated corporate tax base concept), product standards, banking standards, etc. So many pro-Brexit businesses see how their ability to compete is hurt; but it is for the benefit of the group, and their selfishness would only force everyone else to compete on the same level, for no net gain.

It's always tricky to gradually cede power to a powerless institution; powerless institutions attract incompetent people, so it doesn't make sense to grant them power. For a long time, the European Parliament was a talking shop for relatively talentless idealists, but a few power moves started to change that, most noticeably when the EP effectively sacked the Commission in March 1999. That shift has started to bring a higher level of talent to the Parliament, and increased democratic legitimacy of the project. (The democratic deficit faces a similar paradox: why vote for something that has no power; whereas power actually comes from democratic legitimacy.)

I don't think the process can be forced or sped up, and it shouldn't move faster than the people can be sold on the concepts, but it's imperative IMO that integration continues. I strongly hope that Britain is not given a good deal with the EU and finds the global winds cold outside the tent. Even today, you still read blinkered ideologues talking about the gains to mutual trade in the right-wing press; but what's at risk is not wealth, but peace and global influence. A deal that makes Britain and the EU both better off is not actually in the EU's interest. It's taking a very long time for pro-Brexit people to understand this. The EU's strategic interest is in cohesiveness and ownership of strategic resources (so, e.g. finance: it's worth the hit of locking London out if it forces growth of domestic financial centres, even if it takes decades).
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 18:30 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
It would be an Anglo/Franco/German project had the UK stayed.

I've been reading lots of analysis on the topic, and I've come around to the view that the seeds of Brexit were sown when the UK didn't join the Euro. The Euro created an in-group that had effective (qualified) majority, and their interests ultimately steered the union's decision-making. The UK could have tactical wins, but without being part of the Euro, it was never going to control the strategy.

The EU's purpose is (a) to avoid war in Europe by ensuring a high degree of social, political and economic integration, and (b) present a united front for multiple mid-level powers competing in a world dominated by superpowers (USA, USSR back in the day, China increasingly now). It was not and never was a project to make its constituents wealthier via gains from trade - that was the UK's goal, and it was very successful in creating the common market. But then the UK pushed hard to expand east and increase free movement of labour, and reaped the political rewards a decade later.

I think the single greatest cause of European wars is the concept of the nation state, and dissolving the nation state into a Europe of regions should be the long-term strategy. Nationalism is only a step away from fascism, and fascism is fantastic fun: you really feel like you're part of the team, united against the Other, sharing a common bond with your brothers. Populists will always be able to harness nationalism as long as it is felt strongly by the population. So it must, ultimately, be eroded away. I think that's best done by increasing contact with other people, whether it's business or pleasure, work or education, friendship or marriage: but above all destroy the notion of the Other before it ever sets in.

I believe in subsidiarity, but am also acutely aware of the game theory advantages to people who lower standards. This can force decisions to be made at a union level because delegating them to individual nations would encourage a race to the bottom, where nobody wins. The simplest examples are fishing policies, but also tax (I support the common consolidated corporate tax base concept), product standards, banking standards, etc. So many pro-Brexit businesses see how their ability to compete is hurt; but it is for the benefit of the group, and their selfishness would only force everyone else to compete on the same level, for no net gain.

It's always tricky to gradually cede power to a powerless institution; powerless institutions attract incompetent people, so it doesn't make sense to grant them power. For a long time, the European Parliament was a talking shop for relatively talentless idealists, but a few power moves started to change that, most noticeably when the EP effectively sacked the Commission in March 1999. That shift has started to bring a higher level of talent to the Parliament, and increased democratic legitimacy of the project. (The democratic deficit faces a similar paradox: why vote for something that has no power; whereas power actually comes from democratic legitimacy.)

I don't think the process can be forced or sped up, and it shouldn't move faster than the people can be sold on the concepts, but it's imperative IMO that integration continues. I strongly hope that Britain is not given a good deal with the EU and finds the global winds cold outside the tent. Even today, you still read blinkered ideologues talking about the gains to mutual trade in the right-wing press; but what's at risk is not wealth, but peace and global influence. A deal that makes Britain and the EU both better off is not actually in the EU's interest. It's taking a very long time for pro-Brexit people to understand this. The EU's strategic interest is in cohesiveness and ownership of strategic resources (so, e.g. finance: it's worth the hit of locking London out if it forces growth of domestic financial centres, even if it takes decades).


There we have it folks, from the belly of the beast.

A Europe of regions and no nation states is fine until people remember history, their languages cause fractious misunderstandings and people generally be people.

Each war has been caused by ideologues and a people that want something, be it jobs or influence, a common market gives them jobs, a trade bloc will give them the influence, so whats the point of the rest?

Why exactly does the EU need to do more than exist as an entity as EFTA does, i'll tell you why, because it's mostly ran by racists that hate America and they hate Russia, hence why they hate Nato and they dont seem too interested in the UN, because they are truly global bodies, rather than looking in on ourselves which the EU is created to do, meddling with everything, the internet has brought people closer together than ever, so the Eu in my eyes, is redundant.

The difference between the Brits and the rest of the continent is we've never been invaded, so the Eu was purely an economic necessity , always has been, it's slowly moving away from that and with the increase of GATT's and the like, the market wont be as attractive to put all our eggs in one basket as it used to be.

The great thing about the EU getting involved in everything but trade, is that it outsources it's regulatory processes to other's, such as UNECE/ ISO/ CODEX etc, so whilst it has a big market in the single market (for now) they dont make the rules as they are made globally now, so we can tap in to that market while having our own say, whilst not having to compromise sovereignty with the nutcase federalists, things are always changing.

What you're effectively advocating is friendly fascism, where the power is slowly taken away from the people to make them behave, but then as we''ve seen from the decade long Euro zone crisis, real fascism grows because the nation state cant change whats happened to their monetary policy, so your idea is great, as long as the going is good.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:38 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
It would be an Anglo/Franco/German project had the UK stayed.

I've been reading lots of analysis on the topic, and I've come around to the view that the seeds of Brexit were sown when the UK didn't join the Euro. The Euro created an in-group that had effective (qualified) majority, and their interests ultimately steered the union's decision-making. The UK could have tactical wins, but without being part of the Euro, it was never going to control the strategy.

Eh?

barrkel wrote:
I strongly hope that Britain is not given a good deal with the EU and finds the global winds cold outside the tent.

Not that we needed it but confirmation of how the remoaners mind works. The word traitor comes to mind, the rest of what you wrote is a complete fantasy. I mean our little union has stopped all the ill feeling between nations hasn't it, or has it emboldened the Scottish/Welsh, despite the benefits they receive?

You mention the USSR, what happened there? What happened with Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland? All you get from greater integration's everyone going down together. Without Germoney the project would already be at the bottom of the ocean.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
barrkel wrote:
It would be an Anglo/Franco/German project had the UK stayed.

I've been reading lots of analysis on the topic, and I've come around to the view that the seeds of Brexit were sown when the UK didn't join the Euro. The Euro created an in-group that had effective (qualified) majority, and their interests ultimately steered the union's decision-making. The UK could have tactical wins, but without being part of the Euro, it was never going to control the strategy.

Eh?

barrkel wrote:
I strongly hope that Britain is not given a good deal with the EU and finds the global winds cold outside the tent.

Not that we needed it but confirmation of how the remoaners mind works. The word traitor comes to mind, the rest of what you wrote is a complete fantasy. I mean our little union has stopped all the ill feeling between nations hasn't it, or has it emboldened the Scottish/Welsh, despite the benefits they receive?

You mention the USSR, what happened there? What happened with Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland? All you get from greater integration's everyone going down together. Without Germoney the project would already be at the bottom of the ocean.


Just like socialism, ''Real integration has never happened yet, but the one we're going to do is gong to be great, believe me''
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:50 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
I mean our little union has stopped all the ill feeling between nations hasn't it, or has it emboldened the Scottish/Welsh, despite the benefits they receive?

You mention the USSR, what happened there?

Greater China's doing just fine. Nobody there complains loudly or for long about being run from Beijing.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't just create the United States of Europe (USE). We have nothing in common. Some say the USE would be like the USA, but that's just not possible. We don't speak the same language and if we were to, what would it be? We also don't have the same culture, nor history. Politicaly speaking, we can only agree on peace good, war bad.

Yes, there are countries in Europe that are closer to eachother, for instance the V4 countries (to a certain extent), but then you cross the Czech/German border and it's a completely different world out there. And the same obviously goes the other way around.

Martin Schulz and his join us or feck off attitude should start a discussion.

Lastly, do you remember Yugoslavia? Or any such project that the ''good guys'' thought was a great idea?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
You can't just create the United States of Europe (USE).

Need moar Stukas.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

FACT: Remaining in the EU is subscribing to "Ever closer Union.".

The only way that concludes is a federal Europe.

Euro-police on your streets.

A Euro-army to deploy your sons and daughters on the Western front. New member states are cacking themselves over the Crimea situation and will agree to this.

Centralised monetary policy and stock exchange (in Frankfurt).

Staying and and fighting it from the inside will only go so far, our power of veto has been mostly signed away. If we get outvoted on any of the above, even if every UK MEP votes against it, we have two options 1) Comply. 2) Leave.

So I say leave now on our own terms. There will be a flood of leavers and a hardcore of federalists. Like we've done with the financial crisis, take the hit early, start the recovery early.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:


Try just enjoying it instead of analysing it and you may find it quite funny.


I'm flattered you thought I was analysing it Laughing

Just watched it with a friend the other day, and many bits of it just seem unpleasant, not funny.

Is Fawlty the good guy of the show, or what?
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
panrider_uk wrote:


Try just enjoying it instead of analysing it and you may find it quite funny.


I'm flattered you thought I was analysing it Laughing

Just watched it with a friend the other day, and many bits of it just seem unpleasant, not funny.

Is Fawlty the good guy of the show, or what?


What do you find funny?
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:

What do you find funny?


Have I got News for You is wicked. So is QI.

Rick and Morty is also amazing.

I just genuinely mean watching that particular episode of that show with a non-British was embarassing...

I proudly showed him Red Dwarf a week ago, no issues at all. It's a bit dated, and I know it too well, but still funny.

But I mean, how unpleasant is Basil Thinking
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:

What do you find funny?


Have I got News for You is wicked. So is QI.

Rick and Morty is also amazing.

I just genuinely mean watching that particular episode of that show with a non-British was embarassing...

I proudly showed him Red Dwarf a week ago, no issues at all. It's a bit dated, and I know it too well, but still funny.

But I mean, how unpleasant is Basil Thinking


HIGNFY was funny before the internet ruined it, now everything is something we're seen from days ago, ii'll take a punt at you liking Russel Howard and the last leg aswell

Alternatively, Red dwarf is shit and full of dad jokes to me, so maybe it's just a case of different strokes for different folks
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

A China-esque European superstate would be great. I would love that.

Wasn't really working that way though. Unlike the US, China and old Soviet Bloc, western Europe doesn't have anything other than skin colour to unite each nation (and that's pushing it a bit too). Not even a common language or culture.

Ok sure, European culture is actually very distinct from say American, Asian etc, but taking Europe as a single area it's very easy indeed to pick out things that set each nation apart. German efficiency, British politeness, Spanish midday nappingness, French baguetteness, etc. The differences are huge. Nothing short of a European Cultural Revolution would unite us in the same way the other superstates have managed.

And as far as the trading/economic side of things... Ha.


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