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National Grid tottering on the edge

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:32 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Elon Musk is a flim flam artist though.

So he isn't Jesus? I wasn't sure the way some people go on about him.


No, he's GOD Praying
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 02:43 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
.......britain would need another 52.92GW of generating capacity to meet full electric car usage in the worst case scenario........


More maths for those who like such things:

52.92GW is enough to power 43 Flux capaitors, Marty! Dance!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:58 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Elon Musk is a flim flam artist though.

He lucked out with PayPal, but I'm fairly sure that everything he's done since then has been massively loss making, even with the huge taxpayer subsidies that he sponges.


TFA wrote:
100 megawatts of capacity

For how long? 30,000 homes? For how long?

Flim flam. Since I'm making wild assumptions today, I'll go with "little better than a smoothing capacitor".

I'm OK with ecolectric + storage, but I don't think that lithium is going to scale up for that. It'd be interesting to calculate how much solar capacity you'd need to mine, refine, construct, deploy and maintain that storage, in addition to the infrastructure and human lives integral to it.

I can't shake this nagging feeling that we're burning fossil fuels to create a "renewable" system that's a net energy sink. The analogy with Musk and his subsidies versus losses seems fairly clear.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 09:53 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

TFA wrote:
100 megawatts of capacity

For how long? 30,000 homes? For how long?

Flim flam. Since I'm making wild assumptions today, I'll go with "little better than a smoothing capacitor".


Why so little faith in our techno-saviour? it'll power them for a whole hour...he claims Very Happy
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:32 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
it'll power them for a whole hour...he claims Very Happy

02:00 to 03:00 or 17:30 to 18:30?

Fliiiiiim flaaaaaaaaam.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Monkeywrencher wrote:
it'll power them for a whole hour...he claims Very Happy

02:00 to 03:00 or 17:30 to 18:30?

Fliiiiiim flaaaaaaaaam.


You'll eat your words when he delivers on the conceptually flawed Hyperloop and mines out the majority of famously geologically stable California for his fast car transit system, of course we'll be living in Muskville mars by then.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:48 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

He lucked out with PayPal, but I'm fairly sure that everything he's done since then has been massively loss making, even with the huge taxpayer subsidies that he sponges.



It's not that some of them are just silly.

The Hyperloop thing was an awesome but impractical idea, thunderf00t does a hatchet job on hyperloop.

The orbital rocket plane was very silly. Rockets are gigantic controlled explosions and he wanted to put rocket planes with water launches in Hudson bay?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
The Hyperloop thing was an awesome but impractical idea

It wasn't his idea though, was it? Evacuated Space 1799.

So, what did Musk bring to it? A new name, and I guess he's demonstrated yet again the comical impracticality of attempting it with materials that exist in the real world.

SpaceX is probably the closest thing he's had to a profitable business since PayPal, although I believe that's only if you squint a bit and ignore the startup costs. But heck, who doesn't do that?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

So, what did Musk bring to it? A new name, and I guess he's demonstrated yet again the comical impracticality of attempting it with materials that exist in the real world.


A bit like Maggie's right to buy, the Labour PFI scandal, and Teresa's 'energy cap' that's absolutely, certainly, definitely NOTHING like Red Ed's energy cap?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

This is nothing to do with narrow minded Brits getting all Brexity about where their power comes from.


Except it is sometimes.

They play Schroedinger's investor.

Ha BREXIT is super! Look at all the foreign investment.

Yet at the same time all that bloody foreign investment! Sucking money out of the country!

Take a guess who takes this position?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 00:03 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


SpaceX is probably the closest thing he's had to a profitable business since PayPal, although I believe that's only if you squint a bit and ignore the startup costs. But heck, who doesn't do that?



Um no, Falcon launches still cost more than Soyutz launches and that's with the Russians price gouging as there isn't another rocket for taking people into space.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:07 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:

This is nothing to do with narrow minded Brits getting all Brexity about where their power comes from.


Except it is sometimes.

They play Schroedinger's investor.

Ha BREXIT is super! Look at all the foreign investment.

Yet at the same time all that bloody foreign investment! Sucking money out of the country!

Take a guess who takes this position?

What about all that business with the EDF nuclear power stations? IIRC that was yay investment, then people saying hang on this is a very bad deal.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 00:18 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
What about all that business with the EDF nuclear power stations? IIRC that was yay investment, then people saying hang on this is a very bad deal.



What about it? It was an OK deal for both sides.

The UK side is getting a couple of nuclear reactors. They had no alternative as the technical know how and the actual ability to make them has vanished over the past 30 years. The UK will do what it has always done and will try to inflate the cost away.

The EDF/PRC side is also getting an OK deal. They got a high MWH price because they know the UK will definitely try and inflate the price away. Thus they'll make some profit but eventually it will be inflated away.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:53 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
What about it? It was an OK deal for both sides.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/18/hinkley-points-cost-consumers-surges-50bn/
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/18/hinkley-points-cost-consumers-surges-50bn/



Yes and? As I said the UK government didn't have a choice. It was either a nuclear power plant under EDF terms or no nuclear power plant at all.

Secondly it's natural to want a risk premium (the escalating cost and the high strike price) because as I said the UK has almost always inflated (or tried to inflate) their debts away.

This isn't a modern thing. In WW1 GBP was no longer backed by silver so any money loaned to them was devalued. So when it came to part 2 the US wanted gold for weapons initially.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 08:25 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: National Grid tottering on the edge Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
M.C wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/18/hinkley-points-cost-consumers-surges-50bn/



Yes and?

I give up. There's a whole Wikipedia page on the subject, both sides have nearly pulled out at certain points, I think the Chinese had to get involved.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:25 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder, non rhetorically, how much it would have cost to train up the necessary UKians with conditional grants and bursaries tied to them staying in the country and slaving in the atomic mines for a bit.

But nooooo, let's just pay that money to Jean-Claude Wang instead. Quicker, easier.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Build and install your own wind turbine at your own cost and not the massively over exaggerated price the cash gouging bastirts who build, sell, install and maintain/manage current grid-connected units.

They all want their pound of flesh now making wind-power look stupidly extortionate (because of the extortion from the fcukers involved).

(Siemens et al ya cnuts, you know who you are.)
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I wonder, non rhetorically, how much it would have cost to train up the necessary UKians with conditional grants and bursaries tied to them staying in the country and slaving in the atomic mines for a bit.





What exactly stops them from 'going on holiday' and not coming back? Many many student loan run aways do this.

Also going elsewhere and using the money they earn over there to pay back the bursary may also be viable.

Your starter nurse in the UK needs to pile up £40,000 of debt but starts on £18.5K this rises IF they rise through the ranks.

Except nurses in Aus/NZ start on $43,000 ~ £24,000.

So the cost would be tuition fees AND more than they could make by going away and working elsewhere.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:10 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nurses build nuclear plants, you say?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Nurses build nuclear plants, you say?



No, but it is applicable across numerous industries but if you're talking nuclear engineers a quick google search says:


Quote:
UK nuclear engineers average around £35K

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Nuclear_Engineer/Salary

American nuclear engineers have a median of $110K.

Japanese nuclear engineers make around £82K

PRC nuclear engineers make an average of £24K (not including grey income).



This is one of the major problems a whole load of people think it's awesome until they find out how people doing their jobs are paid in other countries.

Yourself for instance working in something to do with software? Make £40-50? 60,000? Yanks average around £82K add in the tax hike in Scotchland soon to 46% and it looks even worse.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:02 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They pay whopping great gobs in health cover though.

Land and houses are cheaper in the burbs.

Commutes are longer.

They don't understand the offside rule.

It's swings and roundabouts.

They don't have roundabouts.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 09:28 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They will just get some high consumption industry to stop production and start up the fields full of diesel generators. Caroline Lucas is probably getting wet over the first part of that statement.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:45 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
They will just get some high consumption industry to stop production

Progress will look a lot like the 1970s then.
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