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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Liverpool Prison - worst conditions ever seen...... Reply with quote

.......says a report.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42310501

FFS, I've sailed on ships with cockroaches, shit systems that don't work, crappy electrics and we were stuck on them 24 hours a day and there was a possibility they could sink. Rolling Eyes These convicts don't know how lucky they are Laughing

In all seriousness I suppose it doesn't look good, a 'civilised' country keeping their prisoners in shitty conditions. However the other half of me says 'so what'. There are people on the streets, no roof over their head, who haven't broken the law so spend money on them and let the crims eat poo. (childish word, I know, crims)

I suppose cockroaches need playstations too!
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arry
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Multiple failures include:

many prisoners living in "squalid conditions"
half were locked up during the working day, many for over 22 hours
half said they had been victimised by staff, with over a third feeling unsafe
a rise in incidents of self-harm


Smallest ever violin solo going on right here.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye, prisons have loads of nasty people in there. They also house humans who effed-up without causing harm.

No need to treat them like ...was going to say animals.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

When prisoners aren't smashing their cell windows and light fittings, then "feeling intimidated" when staff ask them to stop, maybe they could clean their own toilets.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some very large brush strokes going on in here.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liverpool: The worst conditions ever seen, says report

Residents of Liverpool are being kept in the worst living conditions inspectors have ever seen, according to a report seen by BBC News.

Rats and cockroaches were rife, with one area of Liverpool so dirty, infested and hazardous it could not be cleaned.

Some residents live in houses that should be condemned, says the leaked document, with exposed electrical wiring and filthy, leaking lavatories.

Liverpool said it didn't comment on leaked documents.

Inspectors made what they called an unannounced visit to Liverpool in September, having been made aware of concerns.

What they found, says the report, was an "abject failure… to offer a safe, decent and purposeful environment".

The "highly experienced" inspection team said they "could not recall having seen worse living conditions than those at Liverpool".

Multiple failures include:
- many residents living in "squalid conditions"
- half were drugged up during the working day, many for over 22 hours
- half said they had been victimised by bikelife, with over a third feeling unsafe
- a rise in incidents of self-harm

Highlighting one particular incident, the chief inspector, Peter Clarke, could not contain his exasperation.

"I found a resident who had complex mental health needs being held in a house that had no furniture other than a bed," he said.

"The windows of both the house and the toilet recess were broken, the light fitting in his toilet was broken with wires exposed, the lavatory was filthy and appeared to be blocked, his sink was leaking and the house was dark and damp.

"Extraordinarily, this man had apparently been living in this condition for some weeks."

The chief cause of the problems, says the report, was a failure of leadership - at local, regional and national level.

Violence of all kinds had increased, fuelled by the prevalence of drugs, with most residents telling inspectors it was "easy or very easy" to get drugs.

In addition however, inspectors found allegations of excessive use of force by bikelife were not properly investigated by police.

Some police are described as having a "dismissive" attitude to residents, with some police officers applying "unacceptable" unofficial punishments, such as restricting drugs.

There were more than 2,000 outstanding maintenance jobs, and only 22 of the 89 recommendations made following a poor inspection report in 2015 had been fully implemented.

National failure

"It is hard to understand how the leadership of Liverpool could have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this extent," writes the chief inspector, directly criticising the Ministry of Liverpool.

"We saw clear evidence that local managers had sought help from regional and national management to improve conditions they knew to be unacceptable long before our arrival, but had met with little response."

Most damningly of all perhaps, the report concludes: "We could see no credible plan to address these basic issues."

"It's as bad a report as I've ever seen," said Lord Ramsbotham, a former chief inspector of Liverpool.

"But… how could anyone come up from headquarters, go into Liverpool and not feel ashamed about it?

"How on Earth did the head of the Liverpool allow the city to get into that state?"

Asked if, in light of the report, Liverpool could be described as England's worst city, Lord Ramsbotham replied: "I wouldn't dispute that."

'Swimming in urine'

One recently escaped resident told the BBC: "The cockroach problem was so bad, you can hear them gnawing at you at night."

Another said a leaking toilet in his house had led to him "waking up with the pad swimming in urine".

And Darren Harley, escaped in the summer after 27 months in Liverpool for drugs, said the city was "like living in a tip".

"If you put a dog in a place like this, people would come and take you away and lock you up for cruelty to animals.

"We're human beings. So we need to be treated right."

Legacy of cuts

Liverpool may now have the unwelcome attribute of being labelled England's worst city, but cities across England and Wales are under pressure.

Under the coalition government, the then Liverpool Secretary Chris Grayling dramatically cut Liverpool's budgets and staff.

Since the cuts, there has been a rapid rise in suicides, self-harm, violence and assaults within Liverpool.

Recognising its errors, the Ministry of Liverpool is in the process of hiring 2,500 new police officers by next summer.

The governor of Liverpool, Peter Francis, was removed within days of the inspection visit, and last week a former officer at Liverpool, Pia Sinha, was appointed as his replacement.

In a statement on the failings, a Ministry of Liverpool spokeswoman said: "We do not comment on leaked reports."


Last edited by Ste on 21:16 - 18 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Aye, prisons have loads of nasty people in there. They also house humans who effed-up without causing harm.

No need to treat them like ...was going to say animals.


Bike thieves don't cause harm.
Shoplifters don't cause harm.
Burglars don't cause harm (mostly)

However they frighten the shit out of their victims. Destroy lives in other ways.

Tell me a crime that doesn't hurt someone else in some way or other and with it, why I should give a shit?

People don't go to jail for stealing an apple anymore. They only go to jail for serious or multiple offenses as far as I can see. I may be wrong but I don't think so.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:20 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

Bike thieves don't cause harm.
Shoplifters don't cause harm.
Burglars don't cause harm (mostly)

However they frighten the shit out of their victims. Destroy lives in other ways.

Tell me a crime that doesn't hurt someone else in some way or other and with it, why I should give a shit?

People don't go to jail for stealing an apple anymore. They only go to jail for serious or multiple offenses as far as I can see. I may be wrong but I don't think so.


Fraud and non-payment of fines?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


Tell me a crime that doesn't hurt someone else in some way or other and with it, why I should give a shit?


Being the keeper of an uninsured motor vehicle, contrary to section 144A of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prostitution.
Non payment of fines.
Contempt of court.
Defending yourself against over zealous police.
Causing a breech of the peace.
Buying recreational drugs.


but enough about me....(hey..I've got pretty lips...sue me).

I'm firmly of the mind that how 'we' look after 'our' criminals is a pointer.
Same as animal care and people suffering with poor mental health.

It's difficult (for me) to convey without sounding slightly snowflake how treating bad people poorly results in bad people staying bad.
2 wrongs don't make a right is the jist of it.

I'm also of the mind to re-introduce capital punishment (proviso obvs).

Even good prisons smell so really no need to allow them to stink any more.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:


Fraud and non-payment of fines?


Fraud? Well possibly, but not if the fraud is cloning someone's credit card and leaving a shitload of problems for them to try and sort out.

Non payment of fines, OK, I suppose depending on what the fine was for in the first place, So what do you do if someone doesn't pay the fine? Say, don't worry about it, no big deal. We'll let you off if you won't pay?

Still not twanging the violin strings yet. Wink
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:16 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Prostitution.
Non payment of fines.
Contempt of court.
Defending yourself against over zealous police.
Causing a breech of the peace.
Buying recreational drugs.


but enough about me....(hey..I've got pretty lips...sue me).

I'm firmly of the mind that how 'we' look after 'our' criminals is a pointer.
Same as animal care and people suffering with poor mental health.

It's difficult (for me) to convey without sounding slightly snowflake how treating bad people poorly results in bad people staying bad.
2 wrongs don't make a right is the jist of it.

I'm also of the mind to re-introduce capital punishment (proviso obvs).

Even good prisons smell so really no need to allow them to stink any more.


Of all those mentioned, the only one that I could agree about, presuming they didn't have a choice or were coerced, is prostitution.

The rest, unless you did something very serious or are a repeat offender is not going to result in jail time.

However this is not really the argument. The point I was trying to make was in a society where due to lack of money, we have to prioritise, jails are not top of my Christmas wish list.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the most basic of basics.
Give the dog a clean kennel.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:29 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
It's the most basic of basics.
Give the dog a clean kennel.


I have no problem with that.

I presume the inmates are meant to clean their prison themselves so why don't they do a better job. It doesn't matter how old and decrepit it is, it can still be clean.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:


Fraud and non-payment of fines?


Fraud? Well possibly, but not if the fraud is cloning someone's credit card and leaving a shitload of problems for them to try and sort out.

Non payment of fines, OK, I suppose depending on what the fine was for in the first place, So what do you do if someone doesn't pay the fine? Say, don't worry about it, no big deal. We'll let you off if you won't pay?

Still not twanging the violin strings yet. Wink


Don't get me wrong, I've no sympathy for either, but I'd rather see violent offenders behind bars, and non-violent/low risk sweeping streets and picking up dog shit.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bring back Mr. McKay. He wouldn't have stood for any of this nonsense.
Prisons would all be clean as a new pin, and it'd be the prisoners who kept it that way laddie! Eh?
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Howling Terror wrote:
It's the most basic of basics.
Give the dog a clean kennel.


I have no problem with that.

I presume the inmates are meant to clean their prison themselves so why don't they do a better job. It doesn't matter how old and decrepit it is, it can still be clean.

From what I understand the problems are beyond the scope of prisoners...although I'm pretty sure there are a few binmen/plumbers/vermin control cons serving time.

No this is down to management and funding to fix.
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RichardCraniu...
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: Liverpool Prison - worst conditions ever seen...... Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
'. There are people on the streets, no roof over their head, who haven't broken the law so spend money on them and let the crims eat poo. (childish word, I know, crims)


I'd rather go live on the streets than go back to HMP Liverpool
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tricky one this. My dad worked in the prison service for decades, and is convinced that there is a direct correlation between the way a prisoner is kept and his/her likelyhood of re-offending. He worked in everything from Cat A to D, so knows what he is talking about. Odd as it may seem to the more 'reactionary' members of this forum, keeping an animal in sh*t does indeed produces a pig....

The most effective prison he worked in, in terms of rates of re-offending, was a Cat D open borstal in deepest Suffolk, where young scroats from London starting out on their criminal careers were housed in decent conditions and worked primarily on the farm. The worst was Armley which is a Victorian Cat B and a truly horrible place for inmates and staff.

It all got considerably worse when John Major began privatisation of prisons in the early 1990s, and now the staff to 'client' ratio is so low that it is no wonder that sh*t-holes like Liverpool exist.

The answer? Get rid of the Victorian prisons, give the inmates physical work that produces a product and gives them a sense of purpose, and pay Officers more money so the decent ones stay to train better quality recruits. Reinstate the rank of Chief Officer and employ some real, hard bastards who hate drugs. Not complicated.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^Resisting the urge to bum you...Legally of course.
Cool
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:24 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have a cunning plan......

Put all the horrible nasty vermin serving life in the horrible old Victorian prisons. They aren't getting out (till they are old) so it doesn't matter if they feel victimised.

Concentrate on putting the other prisons right, prisoners will be happy and not reoffend and everything will be kittens and roses. Thumbs Up

Or am I being a bit simplistic!

The thing boils down to money, as with just about anything nowadays. If we had enough to knock down all the old prisons, build new ones and employ enough Prison Officers it would be good. we don't, so who is going to suffer, the NHS, schools, mental health, Diane Abbott's pension and expense account or prisoners?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:34 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Well I have a cunning plan......

Put all the horrible nasty vermin serving life in the horrible old Victorian prisons. They aren't getting out (till they are old) so it doesn't matter if they feel victimised.

Concentrate on putting the other prisons right, prisoners will be happy and not reoffend and everything will be kittens and roses. Thumbs Up

Or am I being a bit simplistic!

The thing boils down to money, as with just about anything nowadays. If we had enough to knock down all the old prisons, build new ones and employ enough Prison Officers it would be good. we don't, so who is going to suffer, the NHS, schools, mental health, Diane Abbott's pension and expense account or prisoners?


How about refusing to award prison contracts to G4S and the like until the put their hands in their pocket to build some decent prisons?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
Well I have a cunning plan......

Put all the horrible nasty vermin serving life in the horrible old Victorian prisons. They aren't getting out (till they are old) so it doesn't matter if they feel victimised.

Concentrate on putting the other prisons right, prisoners will be happy and not reoffend and everything will be kittens and roses. Thumbs Up

Or am I being a bit simplistic!

The thing boils down to money, as with just about anything nowadays. If we had enough to knock down all the old prisons, build new ones and employ enough Prison Officers it would be good. we don't, so who is going to suffer, the NHS, schools, mental health, Diane Abbott's pension and expense account or prisoners?


How about refusing to award prison contracts to G4S and the like until the put their hands in their pocket to build some decent prisons?


If that's possible, do it. I admit I have no idea of the extent of their involvement. Do they employ the prison officers?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do in the prisons they're contracted to run.

https://careers.g4s.com/jobs/job/Prison-Custody-Officer-Altcourse/26881

Relevant considering the discussion.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:42 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good, prison should be shit.
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