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MarJay
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
How very hipster to be against any form of religion and hating celebrations associated with them. It's why despite not believing in any form of omnipotent being, I've never described myself as an atheist. I don't want to be thrown in with those dull fuckers who walk around in skinny jeans and where's wally glasses


As is often pointed out to Christians, there is no overarching 'atheist' organisation. In order to be an atheist, you need to not believe in a deity. That describes you, so you might as well embrace the label. If you don't embrace the label you give religious types room to believe they can convert you or what have you.

I don't relate to hipsters. In fact I hate hipsters, and I bet there are just as many Christian or Jewish hipsters as there are Atheists.

The problem the world has right now, is that it's seen as a bad thing to not believe in a deity, even though it's the most rational way to be. Trump recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel because of belief in a deity. He's causing all this discomfort and strife. Islamic State do what they do because of belief in a deity.

I feel like if you don't believe in a deity, and yet you reject the Atheist label you're almost trying to mollify the people who do believe, which is not the way to be. Let them believe in what they want, but don't change yourself for them.

I really f*cking hate Hipsters by the way.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
Stuff about Jebus

Who actually goes to Church on Christmas? Or even thinks about the religious element? If it was a truly religious event it would pass with barely a notice (like all the others). The fact it doesn't, and there's this seemingly increasing build-up year-on-year tells you all you need to know.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
How very hipster to be against any form of religion and hating celebrations associated with them. It's why despite not believing in any form of omnipotent being, I've never described myself as an atheist. I don't want to be thrown in with those dull fuckers who walk around in skinny jeans and where's wally glasses.


This is very reactive, and not well thought through. Have a think about it Wink
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


This is very reactive, and not well thought through. Have a think about it Wink


Nah, you're okay pal.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:


I feel like if you don't believe in a deity, and yet you reject the Atheist label you're almost trying to mollify the people who do believe, which is not the way to be. Let them believe in what they want, but don't change yourself for them.

I really f*cking hate Hipsters by the way.


I get you 100%, but the atheists I know are worse than Jahova Witnesses for trying to convert people and I don't want to be a part of it. Thanks to Richard Dawkins' selfish genes (and a few other high level non-believers) it has become trendy to wear your atheism on a t-shirt.

I like pagans... Women are revered for the beautiful creatures they are and sex is celebrated rather than both of these being treated as dirty and wrong (as they are in more mainstream religions)

Not sure where I was going with this post...
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
it has become trendy to wear your atheism on a t-shirt.


I have Rory Gallagher on my t-shirt. Because everybody knows Rory Gallagher IS God.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:34 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:


Not sure where I was going with this post...


Have a think about it Wink

Laughing
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 17:59 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I try and avoid thinking if at all possible.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
I get you 100%, but the atheists I know are worse than Jahova Witnesses for trying to convert people and I don't want to be a part of it. Thanks to Richard Dawkins' selfish genes (and a few other high level non-believers) it has become trendy to wear your atheism on a t-shirt.


As I've said before, all groups of people have a spectrum of nice people to complete twats. Atheism as a fashion statement is almost as bad as trying to convert people to Christianity IMO.

Poseidon wrote:

I like pagans... Women are revered for the beautiful creatures they are and sex is celebrated rather than both of these being treated as dirty and wrong (as they are in more mainstream religions)

Not sure where I was going with this post...


Paganism may go out of fashion post-Weinstein if your description is really correct. That may well be a good thing... I don't know enough about actual Paganism to know. As far as I understand Paganism is basically any pre-Christian European spirituality.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Paganism may go out of fashion post-Weinstein if your description is really correct. That may well be a good thing... I don't know enough about actual Paganism to know. As far as I understand Paganism is basically any pre-Christian European spirituality.


Can't say I know much about pagans, just the odd bit I've seen or heard about. But it does seem a bit of a catch all for the tribal sorts before the Romans came over.

They accept the gays too by all accounts.
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biker7
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of you intellectual guys are a bit far up your own arses!
Either you like Christmas or hate it.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 23 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
I get you 100%, but the atheists I know are worse than Jahova Witnesses for trying to convert people...

Convert them to what?
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temeluchus
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PostPosted: 03:06 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:


I get you 100%, but the atheists I know are worse than Jahova Witnesses for trying to convert people and I don't want to be a part of it. Thanks to Richard Dawkins' selfish genes (and a few other high level non-believers) it has become trendy to wear your atheism on a t-shirt.


Almost as bad as the smug arseholes who go "oh i'm not an atheist, i'm an AGNOSTIC!", these truly are the worst.

People are so used to thinking about matters metaphysical and spiritual as entire belief systems so that they try and make these titles more than what they are, simple statements of a position on the existence of belief and knowledge.

If you squint sideways at Buddhism you could call it Atheist. It's possible to be an atheist and believe in a lot of whacky things like reincarnation.

Poseidon wrote:


I like pagans... Women are revered for the beautiful creatures they are and sex is celebrated rather than both of these being treated as dirty and wrong (as they are in more mainstream religions)


Well as you say it's a catch all, most varieties of paganism in Europe sacrificed people and animals routinely until they were converted to Christianity.

Most modern paganism is conjured out of vague humanism mixed with some reference to older pagan traditions that whiffs a bit of Anglicanism. I don't think the old slavic, celtic and germanic pagan belief systems had much sympathy for people outside a tribal group.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

temeluchus wrote:
Almost as bad as the smug arseholes who go "oh i'm not an atheist, i'm an AGNOSTIC!", these truly are the worst.


I've never encountered an agnostic. Only time I've ever heard the term was watching hot fuzz. I'm sheltered from the believers for the most part due to working in a scientific field. Had a physicist friend who was a devout Christian and would go to great lengths to tell you that science and religion aren't exclusive. I fell out with him when he had a go at a gay friend of mine for being sinful. Damn near punched him at the time.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's for young children and young couples... that's it.

Interestingly, "Christmas obsessed" Germany had nothing before December, and only a tasteful amount throughout December. Decorations only a week or two ago.

No music, no bullshit, and asides from slightly more foil plated chocolate santas, barely any difference in the supermarkets Thumbs Up

A nice change from the forced gun-to-the-head consumption of the UK. I'm beginning to feel it is a uniquely British problem.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

temeluchus wrote:

If you squint sideways at Buddhism you could call it Atheist. It's possible to be an atheist and believe in a lot of whacky things like reincarnation.

Poseidon wrote:


I like pagans... Women are revered for the beautiful creatures they are and sex is celebrated rather than both of these being treated as dirty and wrong (as they are in more mainstream religions)


Well as you say it's a catch all, most varieties of paganism in Europe sacrificed people and animals routinely until they were converted to Christianity.

Most modern paganism is conjured out of vague humanism mixed with some reference to older pagan traditions that whiffs a bit of Anglicanism. I don't think the old slavic, celtic and germanic pagan belief systems had much sympathy for people outside a tribal group.


Nesty quote goodness.

Yes, Paganism and Buddhism both interest me more than other things.

I used to be very devoutly atheist, and still find the idea of a personal god ridiculous... Even if I'd love Morgan Freeman to come and whisper sweet encouragements in my ear whilst wearing a white suit.

But Buddhism is a philosophy, and paganism is a perspective shift.

I don't see how you can't align those with atheism, although it can be a long discussion to enter in to.

Agnostic is particularly hated by Dawkins actually. It's intellectually vacant... like planning to have an opinion in future.

The thing is, when it comes to theology and spirituality, you have to separate logic and the heart, somehow.

Nowadays I see "religion" and "spirituality", as well as most forms of hedonism, to be pursuits of becoming present. Here and now boys, etc.

You hump a beautiful girl. You ride a sports bike very fast. You do a lot of drugs. You get drunk. You get high.... all of those things make you focus on that point in time... not the bills, not work next week, not the shopping you need to do. Just the here and now.

Buddhism, Humanism, devout spiritual service... all focus the mind on the here and now.

There are different paths to get there I guess.... :shrug:


Also, RE: Poseidon's point...

If you have 20 minutes you wish to fill well, I can't recommend this cliip enough...

Stephen Fry arguing against the Catholic church as a force for good in the world
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't we just all agree to put the Satan back in Saturnalia?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Stuff about Jebus

Who actually goes to Church on Christmas? Or even thinks about the religious element? If it was a truly religious event it would pass with barely a notice (like all the others). The fact it doesn't, and there's this seemingly increasing build-up year-on-year tells you all you need to know.


Slavs do, that's who. Thumbs Up

Can't speak for the whole block, but in the Land of Beer, people are not religious in general. Yet, Christmas, Easter and some others are celebrated here and we even do the Midnight mass on the 24th December. What do we do at such Mass? Well, take your mates/family members and walk to your local church. Most people just use this oportunity to get together with friends and sip what ever liquor they have with. So, it is really a spiritual event.

Me, personally? I don't really celebrate anything. I just go with the flow, because it's kind of expected. Although I don't do anything special myself. A day off and a festive dinner are sufficient to me.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:52 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't all religion just a way of preparing for death? Maybe trying to make everything worthwhile along the way? It's like an insurance policy, either to avoid Hell, or avoid having to keep going around the wheel of life in reincarnation after reincarnation. And like insurance companies, you've no idea if they'll actually pay out when the time comes and you need them.

Some quite prominent scientists have said that when you keep reducing things down and down as far as we can (so far) go, in the end, the only thing that explains what you're left with is God. Although personally I find that to be a cop-out. If man hadn't invented God, what would they be saying then?

I think most of those who "hate", or at least are fed up with, Christmas are fed up with the way it has become so all-pervasive at this time of year. They hate the commercialism of it, the fact that it leaves no 'breathing space'.

The reaction against religion has nothing to do with "hipster". What a ridiculous thing to say. You only have to turn on the news on almost any day to see why people get pissed off with it, and wish it would all just go away. If you can't see that, then you really are blind. Mind you, if we weren't all at each other's throats over religion, it'd just be something else. Politics anyone?
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Isn't all religion just a way of preparing for death?


No, it's for control of the masses.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Isn't all religion just a way of preparing for death?


No, it's for control of the masses.


Well, yes, ultimately. But for those who believe in one sky fairy or another is what I guess I meant.
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temeluchus
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
I've never encountered an agnostic. Only time I've ever heard the term was watching hot fuzz.


It's mostly used by the edgiest atheists to make themselves super edgy by saying they are too good for the word atheist. If you are agnostic on the question of a deity(s) you're an atheist if you call yourself one or not. Like i said, people are too hung up on titles! It's a statement of a position on a single question, not a worldview despite what some atheists (dawkins, atheism+ jackasses etc) and religious types would convince you to believe.

Poseidon wrote:
Had a physicist friend who was a devout Christian and would go to great lengths to tell you that science and religion aren't exclusive. I fell out with him when he had a go at a gay friend of mine for being sinful. Damn near punched him at the time.


Indeed. Despite what "progressives" say, religion isn't necessarily a positive feeling that makes for nice people who can get along. Most people in the west are used to paying lip service to religion and thinking its all a nice warm humanistic hug box, mostly because they never really look into it and are surprised when the truly devout want to throw rocks at peoples heads.

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Isn't all religion just a way of preparing for death?


No, it's for control of the masses.


I suspect the latter followed the former. Most likely started as a sincere attempt to try and explain what the hell was going on in the world, but eventually of course someone figured out how to work it to their advantage and organised religion with a priesthood was born.

chickenstrip wrote:
Some quite prominent scientists have said that when you keep reducing things down and down as far as we can (so far) go, in the end, the only thing that explains what you're left with is God. Although personally I find that to be a cop-out. If man hadn't invented God, what would they be saying then?


Of course god could also have popped out of thin air, have no idea of why it popped into existence and created our universe out of boredom or loneliness? Or is it turtles all the way down?

Who knows? I suspect nobody does.
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temeluchus
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:

I used to be very devoutly atheist, and still find the idea of a personal god ridiculous... Even if I'd love Morgan Freeman to come and whisper sweet encouragements in my ear whilst wearing a white suit.

But Buddhism is a philosophy, and paganism is a perspective shift.

I don't see how you can't align those with atheism, although it can be a long discussion to enter in to.


As you say Busshism is a philosophical movement at heart, the belief in any deity is optional. As for paganism, I suppose it depends on the variety. I guess it's possible to be an animist and be an atheist as it's nature spirits who are part of the real world rather than supernatural. Something like Germanic pagansim absolutely not.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Agnostic is particularly hated by Dawkins actually. It's intellectually vacant... like planning to have an opinion in future.


It's just avoiding the term atheist and it's various negative connotations I've found when they are pressed.

Sun Wukong wrote:
The thing is, when it comes to theology and spirituality, you have to separate logic and the heart, somehow.


I hear you. Hang the sense of it and enjoy yourself. By getting drunk and hugging EVERYONE.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I received a Christmas card this year from someone who I haven't seen in years, and is not only a devout Christian but also encloses one of those god-awful round-robin letters too (how many of my buttons can you press at the same time, guys?)

Turns out hubby's been made redundant recently and is now having a break to wait and "see what God's plans are for him next". I mean, for fuck's sake Sick
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 24 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:


Yes, Paganism and Buddhism both interest me more than other things.



Buddhism mainly for me. Except for a couple of aspects it seems to make the most sense.
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