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Ethical question about vehicle sale.

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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

dydey90 wrote:
Bit of a grey area really, if you’d mentioned it, would be have still bought it?

I once laughed my way out of a very dodgy second hand car dealer when he showed me the V5 for a Corsa that my Mrs was about to buy and it clearly said it had been written off two months previously. It didn’t show up on the HPI check so I’m guessing it takes time to register. He still swore it had never been damaged in any way.

Interesting. I've wondered what goes wrong when they don't record it (happened to my bike), it's odd the DVLA would seemingly know and the HPI people wouldn't. I think <2 months is about the time it takes depending on when it was inspected etc.

Pete. wrote:
Cat C can be from something as trivial as slightly bent forks, which can be done by a very slight bump. Can't say it would bother me much though I have to wonder at the motives and thought processes of a person who doesn't HPI a vehicle before he buys it but does do it afterwards.

If the thought of riding a cat C bothers you that much - do the check beforehand.

That sums up my feelings for bikes at least, it's more the stigma attached to it, as you can have a perfectly fine bike that's been previously written off. For cars no way would I be interested in testing out an already crumpled crumple zone.

Itchy wrote:
Pete. wrote:
I have to wonder at the motives and thought processes of a person who doesn't HPI a vehicle before he buys it but does do it afterwards.



Some people attempt a quick turn on something. So they buy something and then quickly sell it on or they even have a buyer in mind while they're buying off you.

The next buyer who is charged more on this turn does a HPI check on it and then haggles down the price to the first buyer who now realises his quick turn isn't what it was and he wasn't so smart.

Might have just slipped their mind. I found out after I bought my 125 as I had a work phone and was bored one day Smile Also I kinda want to know when it was written off (I think some give you a full report rather than just the text).

If they've bought say a 3 grand bike, stacked it, got paid out and repaired it for 50p then want 3 grand again I want a bit of money off Razz Further down the chain I'm not that fussed.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would certainly tell (if I knew)

My 955i Tiger I bought at a very good price, and it looked pretty immaculate. When I came to sell it the purchaser said it came up as stolen on the HPI check. I checked and it did, stolen about 6 years before but had changed owners twice since then.

I phoned the police to ask them if it was on their 'wanted' list and they said no and that probably the insurers had never updated it after it was recovered. Shocked

I told the prospective purchaser and he was happy to go ahead if I dropped a couple of hundred off the price. I did, but only cause I felt a bit of a cunt trying to sell him the bike with a marker on it. It certainly was in a condition you wouldn't think anything was wrong if you saw and rode it.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
Can't say it would bother me much though I have to wonder at the motives and thought processes of a person who doesn't HPI a vehicle before he buys it but does do it afterwards.

Precisely.

What's the guy wanting?

It's a cat C, what of it?

It being a cat C doesn't change the condition of the bike, if it was of any interest to him then he'd have HPI checked it before buying. He could well have done that being buying but has broken something and hopes he can get his money back and pull one over on stinky wheels.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:55 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per RogerPal®'s standard corporate procedure, if you buy a vehicle from me, your phone / email will be blocked by the time you reach the end of the road, and you are welcome to vent your ire to /dev/null.

I'm surprised by this thread. Enfield purchasers don't tend to be the "burn your house down" types, so why are any fvck's being given?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wonder what the buyers point is. It's a cat c, what of it? Laughing

Telon-Mike only wrote:
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Wonko The Sane
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PostPosted: 23:40 - 28 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldie wrote:
Whether or not you feel that you did the right thing I'm not surprised that the buyer is a bit miffed. I would be. It's just such an obvious point to mention in any advert, same goes for imports.

The reason that I'd want to know if it was a write off is so that the seller can explain whether the bike has been satisfactorily repaired, or not. This might give the buyer some kind of fall back position if the facts given were untrue.


four years back when I was buying the ZZR a cat C or D write off was a no-no for me, trying to get insurance with a new licence and a 33bhp restriction was a little tricky at times, now I'd just want to know what happened and what the damage was and repair done.

My hornet has clearly been over on both sides and the indicators waggle a bit as a result, meh, it'll probably end up on it's side again at some point being commuted on (hopefully not though)

ideally yes, it would be nice if the seller highlighted it but it is also down to me to check the paperwork in front of me / HPI it.

My ZZR got knocked over (with me on it) and I was paid out by the driver's insurance as though it was written off but it was never recorded (we'd discussed that I'd be fixing it and I was told it would not be recorded as written off) Damage was a bent exhaust and some broken fairings which were replaced. New owner was told it had been over and repaired.

If the buyer directly asked if it had been written off and you'd said no then there's an issue morally.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 12:12 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was discussing the subject of write-offs with some guys down the pub last night.

The consensus was a motorcycle write-off is a very different thing to a car write-off.

On a car, economic write-offs are usually subject to bodywork damage like a crumpled wing/door/bumper which tends to be bashed/pulled/filled/glued back into shape then resprayed.

On motorcycles, the damage is usually to cycle parts like a wheel or forks or a bent handlebar. Or to fairings which -with the exception of very light damage- are usually unsalvageable (or at least, not in a way you wouldn't be able to see). So on bikes, the damaged parts tend to be removed and replaced rather than repaired or patched up.

In some ways, a Cat C write off means there has been some sort of official oversight of the repair following a crash, especially with the new "rules" because you need a report showing it to be roadworthy beforee the DVLA will issue a new V5c for it.

It's the old bike with a "clean" history you have to be extra vigilant with. I could go out tomorrow and flip my bike over a drystone wall at 100mph, roll the forks, pull the subrfame straight with a pry bar, bodge a set of aftermarket plastics on and sell it. If I don't tell anyone, there is no record of it happening.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he's had more than one V5 stating it was a Cat C in his hand before coughing up, it's his problem. It's a really, really basic thing to look for, and as most people HPI something before handing over that kind of money, I would have assumed he had, and was okay with it being a Cat C.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:

In some ways, a Cat C write off means there has been some sort of official oversight of the repair following a crash, especially with the new "rules" because you need a report showing it to be roadworthy beforee the DVLA will issue a new V5c for it.


When did that become a thing?

My Bandit was given a Cat C because of a 'bent frame' and forks.

What was bent? The lug that the footpeg bolts to. A big spanner on the lug to bend it straight and a new set of forks and it was right as rain.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:

In some ways, a Cat C write off means there has been some sort of official oversight of the repair following a crash, especially with the new "rules" because you need a report showing it to be roadworthy beforee the DVLA will issue a new V5c for it.


When did that become a thing?

I thought they had it for cars but recently scrapped it.
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

When selling a bike I usually summarise everything in the documentation I hold, good or bad, in the advert, so if selling a previously cat C or D'd bike, I'd mention it. That being said, I let the buyer do the talking; I answer any question asked of me, and I'd point out anything that would be obvious to a savvy buyer, but I don't list every last thing I can be beaten up on price with.

The first YBR I bought had the fact it was a write off (can't remember if it was C or D) on the V5, but I didn't notice that until after I'd parted with cash. I was wet, tired and had looked at a number of dogs - this was a decent bike. I was annoyed it hadn't been mentioned, but more annoyed at myself for not noticing, or asking.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
I have to wonder at the motives and thought processes of a person who doesn't HPI a vehicle before he buys it but does do it afterwards.


I'd imagine that he just noticed it on some paperwork, rather than actually HPIing it after buying it. But even so, he should've done that before buying it.

My (two year old at the time) NC700 was written off for a gear lever, handlebars, mirror and scratched paintwork. I bought it back from the insurer and fixed it for pennies, it feels no different to how it was before the incident.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:43 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
I don't list every last thing I can be beaten up on price with.

I might have just got noob buyers but being 100% honest about faults etc. didn't seem to put them off. I like to see a list of faults in adverts as no vehicle's faultless IMO. I also imagine you're wasting both parties time if you don't mention major things, I had one guy say "as I said it was stolen recovered" soon as I arrived... except he hadn't stated that in the advert or in communications before I viewed it (he also seemed embarrassed as he said it) Confused

One thing I did learn was if you're going to (for example) mention superficial damage, take good pictures of said damage. The buyer might imagine it to be worse than it is.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
In some ways, a Cat C write off means there has been some sort of official oversight of the repair following a crash, especially with the new "rules" because you need a report showing it to be roadworthy beforee the DVLA will issue a new V5c for it.

Er, source?

AFAICT, there are only two (actual) categories of write-off: repairable, and non-repairable. Repairable, DVLA don't care. Non-repairable, DVLA won't issue a V5C.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's clear as mud but I was under the impression that for a Cat S and cat N, you have to apply to the DVLA with an engineers report/MOT to get the V5 re-issued.

I was, perhaps, mistaken.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://cdn.bcf.44bytes.net/files/lies.jpg
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:18 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:
In some ways, a Cat C write off means there has been some sort of official oversight of the repair following a crash, especially with the new "rules" because you need a report showing it to be roadworthy beforee the DVLA will issue a new V5c for it.

Er, source?

AFAICT, there are only two (actual) categories of write-off: repairable, and non-repairable. Repairable, DVLA don't care. Non-repairable, DVLA won't issue a V5C.

Contain yourself flowchart incoming:

https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/15/13/82/47/flow10.png

What's a Literal?
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owl10
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short answer as already stated is Caveat Emptor. Nothing to worry about.

Longer answer is it depends; did you write anything in the ad to imply it wasnt a write off? If so, then the other party may have a case - misrepresentation.

But it doesn't sound like you did.

Morally speaking my view is you should disclose this sort of stuff... If for no other reason than avoiding the hassle that comes with it otherwise.
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 02 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Legally, don't tell them anything that isn't true.

Morally, I probably would. But I'm sure my bike would be considered a cat C if an insurer looked at it right now, out in the works car park, if they had to pay out for it.

But also, the buyer shares a lot of the responsibility, the V5 said it, why did they not look at it? Did they not know what to look for? They should have brought a capable person.

Meh. Let him whinge, not your problem.
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Bozzy.
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 02 Jan 2018    Post subject: Re: Ethical question about vehicle sale. Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Is it the sellers responsability to draw the buyers attention to a vehicle having been previously written off?


Assuming you mean a private sale?

Legally - no, it isn’t.

Morally? Well that’s open to discussion! If it were me selling I’d point it out in the advert so that my conscience was clear.
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