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Bike capacitors to add some extra kick to large motors.

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NOKES
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 29 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Bike capacitors to add some extra kick to large motors. Reply with quote

We are converting a 1982 Yamaha Virago XV920 into a cafe racer. Even with a much higher CCA battery it still feels like the battery strains on the compression stroke. We want to add a capacitor to give the battery some extra kick but are getting all sorts of mixed information as to the size of the capacitors farads. I know that the voltage is not really critical as long as it is higher than what the bike runs at and the capacitor will only charge up to the voltage that the generator puts out. The voltage rating will refer to the amount of heat the capacitor will take. And as the heat rises and the capacitor ages this maximum voltage rating of the capacitor will drop resulting in the chance it could drop below the generators output causing the capacitor to burn out. So we planned on using a capacitor with a voltage rating about 4x the generators output which is 13.8v x 4 = 55.2v so a capacitor somewhere around 55v (50v-60v in reality). My question is what is the largest safest capacitor I can add and will it require one of these circuit board balancers to regulate it even if we were just going to run one capacitor instead of multiple smaller capacitors in series to increase their voltage to a safe level. I found a decent capacitor on ebay which was 70v and 180,000 microfarads or 180 farads for about $30. Would this be safe or too many farads? Could it be safe with a circuit board regulator? Question
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 21:29 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think by the time you've messed on with capacitors, you could have just fitted a big enough battery.

If you already have a big enough battery, then you need to fix whatever is wrong with the starter circuit.

They are not a bike that's known for having problems starting/cranking so if it's struggling, something is wrong. It's a 35 year old bike so things wont be as ship-shape as when it was new.

I'd ensure the solenoid is in good order so it's making proper contact, it may be worth just replacing this or eliminating it by shorting across the contacts with an old screwdriver and seeing if the starter spins more freely.

I'd check the engine is making good contact with the frame, I'd check the frame earth is in good order and corrosion free and that the starter motor housing is earthed properly and not coated in grease/corrosion.

After that, if it's still sluggish, I'd have a look at the motor itself. Check the brushes, bushes and clean up the commutator.

Pumping more power through a failing electrical system will only make it fail faster.
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yen_powell
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought all 80s Viragos sounded like they were going to pop out a hernia when spinning the starter motor. All the ones I heard did anyway.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:55 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: Bike capacitors to add some extra kick to large motors. Reply with quote

NOKES wrote:
Even with a much higher CCA battery

Let me tell you a tale about a "210 CCA" Whang Dong ExtremoUltimataBatt that I made the mistake of gambling on a few years back. I got about 6 months of reliable starting out of it before I had to knock the bike into gear, then heave it forwards over TDC in order to get a good crank stroke out of it.

I'd connect a car battery (engine off) in parallel to your "higher CCA" battery and see if the bike spins up.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 29 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a small 12v battery and put it in series with the starter solenoid. The starter will get 24v and spin the engine easily.

Charge said small battery once in a while.
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NOKES
L Plate Warrior



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PostPosted: 07:48 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know the difference between running 1 large capacitor that is 16v 500 farads or 6 - 2.7v 500 farad capacitors in series to reach the 16v? It seems the individual capacitors would need to be soldered together along with circuit boards to balance the charging and current flow, yet 1 capacitor that is large enough would be much simpler and cheaper to purchase and install?
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ssray
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Youtube supercaps
Looked into it a bit, seems they normally have less ah than a battery which is ok if its a quick starter
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 16:51 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an old bike. When 'new' it should have started OK. If it doesn't now, why not? I would start from the old precept of before looking for 'more' than standard, make sure you have all you should 'as' standard.
On an old bike, there's more than a small chance that the starter motor is rather gummed; I would pull it, strip it, check the bushes and brushes, probably expect to replace at least the brushes, and re-assemble with nice fresh grease.
Then I would turn my attention to the solenoid; if starter is old, good chance that solenoid has spent a lot of time arcng and pitting. If you are lucky, its an old fashioned example held together with screws that can be stripped, the contractor plate and contacts filed smooth, and clean, and re-assembled with light lube.
Next on the list wold be earth straps. Starters often earth to the engine through their mount, which on old alloy often furs up. If That interface hasn't gone high resistance, good chance that any between engine mount and frame and/or engine-battery has.
AND if the project has pulled the motor and repainted things like the frame and or the engine, new pant can do as good or better job of resisting electric than old corrosion! I'd pull, or at least lift the motor, clean contact points, and re-tighten, pull earth straps and clean and refit A-N-D if 'mods' are likely to be useful, before effing with farrads, a simple 'direct' earth cable from starter motor to battery, would be a good sure fire one t help the starter get all the juice it should!
Next, if not already done when pulling starter and soleniod, positive supply cables ad connections could like-wise do with check, clean and re-tight, and a tab of Vaseline or similar to keep water from corroding them.
LASTLY... far too often batteries are blamed for poor starting, and get swapped only when they are far beyond redemption, but tired old starter and solenoid and poor cabling/earths, are the 'problem' and stress new battery in short order, and never get 'sorted' a succession of batteries blamed for the 'problem'.. But.. all else given the best chance, battery has best chance, and a 'good' new battery of standard capacity 'should' as when bike was new, be more than up to the job.... ad most modern batteries often have much higher cold-cranking-amp capacity than they did thirty odd years ago.....
So, IF all else is properly renovated, and you get what you should 'as' standard' you should need no more.... whether you would get it from some sort of capacitor array or not!
And personally, I would be very sanguine they could... capacitors are wonderful for storing and returning 'relatively' large amounts of charge in a very short time, as in an AC circuit or ignition system; they are not very good at providing a 'sustained' current that a DC starter motor demands!!!
And IF that lot doesn't 'help then problem lies else-where and STILL a ill conceived mod isn't the solution. Old tired plugs, half hearted ignition, valve guides or piston-rings letting as much sump-oil into the combustion chamber as petrol, on tired old engine will all conspire against easy starting..... now even f you get it to start, such niggles are going to make for an engine that leaves clouds of blue smoke in its wake, and uses more fuel to not go so fast, or be as responsive, and ultimetely refuse to run, let alone start from whatever 'problem' it has in there.
So.. basic service items; new plugs; tickle tappets, change oil, check compression; then look at coils, and like starter, pat attention to coil mounting and earth; Oh! look, that better earth for the starter has helped earth sparks and they are beefier too! Double whammy! So what about the LT leads? Are spades clean? Are wires thinned? What about the CDi connections? Or does it have point? If so new points and f you are concerned with capacitors, new condenser, will likely make a HEAP more difference than a cap-boosted old starter motor.... ISTR Yammies of this era tend to favor the old XS type points/condenser that are a tad expensive, and folk are loath to clean/adjust/replace, if they even realise they can, used to modern black-box CDi's!
Its all pretty simple, basic, fundemental stuff, that does ot require any design inginuity or modification creativity or bright ideas... just old fashioned patience, diligence and 'work'... and far more likely to actually have long-term beneficial effect than some not so brilliant idea using a bit of cruiser-nova-kid bass-boost electrickery!

Think about it... when it was new, this bike started on the button, each and every time. If all is good, it still should.

Solve problems, DON'T make problems.. before looking for more than standard, make sure you have what you should AS standard.
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NOKES
L Plate Warrior



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PostPosted: 02:59 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why there are so many people trying to pretend they know more about this bike and project than I do without even ever seeing it or having the slightest idea what is going on. Yet are quick to try and show me how much more they know and how little I do. Half these responses I am getting are lectures way off topic and having nothing to do with the questions I am asking and their fixes are just irrelevant. IDK if some people are just trying to feed their egos by proving how much more they know by treating people as if they know nothing by trying to change the topic and pretend the original question and project is not relevant.

But I never said the bike was an old gummed up beater, with burnt up starter, bad wiring, and all the other issues people just jumped to conclusion that I have with the inability to diagnose. In reality I actually said the bike has been restored into a cafe cruiser where as the motor has milled heads and extremely high compression compared to stock along with a new starter, a new higher cca than stock battery, new electrical etc. A capacitor is actually the easiest and least expensive way to give your starter a quick short boost in power as compared to relocating your battery to fit an even larger version or 2nd battery. Especially when the situation only requires an extra short boost in amperage a few seconds at a time during the compression stroke which is exactly what a capacitor is designed for. Not attempt to sit and turn the starter over at the same amperage over and over non stop for 2 hours instead of 10 minutes like what a 2nd or even larger battery would do. Capacitors aid in giving fast charges and fast power dumps when the system struggles like a stock starter does on a rebuilt motor with higher compression than it was originally designed for. I am not looking for anyone to debate that with me I am looking for people with experience working with capacitors only to answer a couple of my original questions in my previous posts.

These Virago bikes have always had starting issues where basically the solenoid doesn't fully engage the gears before trying to turn the motor over which allows the gears to slip slightly and has given these bikes the reputation for sounding like a box of rocks as they turn over which is an issue they have always had and anyone with experience with a Virago will confirm for you. What we are trying to do is not only give the starter some extra kick to compensate for the higher compression but we are also trying to fix a stock flaw with the starter these bikes are known for. We are hoping that possibly by giving the bike some extra electrical kick at the very beginning of start up the capacitors could help with driving the solenoid out to fully engage the gear quicker before the starter begins to attempt to spin over and eliminating the gear noise.

I wasn't trying to go into a whole lecture on everything that is going on with the bike, I thought I could just ask some questions to get info about capacitors. And hopefully get responses that are directly related to what I am asking and not having people jump to conclusions the bike is a piece of junk or I don't know how to change the oil. But maybe I need to go into detail so as to not be treated like an idiot who can't figure out which hole the gas goes in. We have also done some customizing to the starter by flipping the gear around and milling the shoulder down so the gear has less to travel before fully engaging the gears and bottoming out on the other side. The capacitor is there to mostly give aid like I said in the original post to the high compression issue but it may also help solve the Virago stock starter rattling sound issue as well. If not our next step is to create a small circuit board that when starting the bike will quickly engage the solenoid but put just a slight delay on the starter motor beginning to spin until the starter has time to fully engage the gears. Most likely it won't fix both problems but I am sure the extra boost from the capacitor will help the starter spin thru the high compression stroke of this new motor with less effort like it did stock.

I was reading another guys post about capacitors where he planned to run some in place of his batteries and he created a post to ask some capacitor questions but instead of people who didn't agree with his project just moving on, his thread was full of people just telling him how wrong he was arguing with every idea he had even though he had some valid points and math to prove his theory. And the naysayers only basis to back their not supporting him was the fact they felt it was stupid and he either had to keep using his battery or use whatever their idea was or he was wrong. Even though he wasn't wrong he was just different from each of their own ideas which had their own flaws that might have worked on their bike but it was theirs it was his and they didn't know anything about it or what was driving his decision to change all they knew is that it wasn't how they did it so he was wrong and must follow their recommendations or remain wrong. How about just let people do what they want and instead go start their own threads to lecture people or show people how well they can do basic repairs and leave other people's threads to them. Then if people have the info someone requires and feel like helping then they can offer that instead. Don't assume you know everything and jump to conclusions about people's ability and their bike's condition or situation and use someones thread as an opportunity to get off topic and prove how much more you know about everything and they know nothing by belittling their ideas and projects as if wrong or worthless.

In real life there is honestly nothing more annoying than having to listen to "that guy", the one who without even really having all the facts or knows what is going on jumps at the opportunity to attempt to sound smarter than everyone by lecturing people about anything and everything whether relevant or not just to hear themselves speak. So don't don't be that guy and do it in the forums. Give people the benefit of the doubt maybe they do know what they are doing and their reason for doing what they are doing is valid. Just because you don't have the answer to their question just move on don't feel the need to feed your ego by trying to treat them as if they are the one's who don't understand the situation.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have out teffed tef Shocked Shocked


prepare for a real teffing now
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:29 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOKES wrote:
a new higher cca than stock battery

Verified how?


NOKES wrote:
A capacitor is actually the easiest and least expensive way to give your starter a quick short boost in power as compared to relocating your battery to fit an even larger version or 2nd battery.

Hey, there was a guy on here asking about that not long ago. I'll point him at this thread to read the definitive answer.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOKES wrote:
I don't know why there are so many people trying to pretend they know more about this bike and project than I do


I have electronics qualifications. I know more than you. Use a fucking battery.

If you don't know how to spec the correct EDLC's, then you have zero ground to lecture anyone using common fucking sense and telling you to use a fucking battery. Even if you did have the knowledge, they're not cheap. That's why we use a fucking battery to start vehicles.

I don't read Tef's wall 'o text, I'm not reading yours.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOKES wrote:
I don't know why there are so many people trying to pretend they know more about this bike and project than I do without even ever seeing it or having the slightest idea what is going on. Yet are quick to try and show me how much more they know and how little I do. Half these responses I am getting are lectures way off topic and having nothing to do with the questions I am asking and their fixes are just irrelevant. IDK if some people are just trying to feed their egos by proving how much more they know by treating people as if they know nothing by trying to change the topic and pretend the original question and project is not relevant.

But I never said the bike was an old gummed up beater, with burnt up starter, bad wiring, and all the other issues people just jumped to conclusion that I have with the inability to diagnose. In reality I actually said the bike has been restored into a cafe cruiser where as the motor has milled heads and extremely high compression compared to stock along with a new starter, a new higher cca than stock battery, new electrical etc. A capacitor is actually the easiest and least expensive way to give your starter a quick short boost in power as compared to relocating your battery to fit an even larger version or 2nd battery. Especially when the situation only requires an extra short boost in amperage a few seconds at a time during the compression stroke which is exactly what a capacitor is designed for. Not attempt to sit and turn the starter over at the same amperage over and over non stop for 2 hours instead of 10 minutes like what a 2nd or even larger battery would do. Capacitors aid in giving fast charges and fast power dumps when the system struggles like a stock starter does on a rebuilt motor with higher compression than it was originally designed for. I am not looking for anyone to debate that with me I am looking for people with experience working with capacitors only to answer a couple of my original questions in my previous posts.

These Virago bikes have always had starting issues where basically the solenoid doesn't fully engage the gears before trying to turn the motor over which allows the gears to slip slightly and has given these bikes the reputation for sounding like a box of rocks as they turn over which is an issue they have always had and anyone with experience with a Virago will confirm for you. What we are trying to do is not only give the starter some extra kick to compensate for the higher compression but we are also trying to fix a stock flaw with the starter these bikes are known for. We are hoping that possibly by giving the bike some extra electrical kick at the very beginning of start up the capacitors could help with driving the solenoid out to fully engage the gear quicker before the starter begins to attempt to spin over and eliminating the gear noise.

I wasn't trying to go into a whole lecture on everything that is going on with the bike, I thought I could just ask some questions to get info about capacitors. And hopefully get responses that are directly related to what I am asking and not having people jump to conclusions the bike is a piece of junk or I don't know how to change the oil. But maybe I need to go into detail so as to not be treated like an idiot who can't figure out which hole the gas goes in. We have also done some customizing to the starter by flipping the gear around and milling the shoulder down so the gear has less to travel before fully engaging the gears and bottoming out on the other side. The capacitor is there to mostly give aid like I said in the original post to the high compression issue but it may also help solve the Virago stock starter rattling sound issue as well. If not our next step is to create a small circuit board that when starting the bike will quickly engage the solenoid but put just a slight delay on the starter motor beginning to spin until the starter has time to fully engage the gears. Most likely it won't fix both problems but I am sure the extra boost from the capacitor will help the starter spin thru the high compression stroke of this new motor with less effort like it did stock.

I was reading another guys post about capacitors where he planned to run some in place of his batteries and he created a post to ask some capacitor questions but instead of people who didn't agree with his project just moving on, his thread was full of people just telling him how wrong he was arguing with every idea he had even though he had some valid points and math to prove his theory. And the naysayers only basis to back their not supporting him was the fact they felt it was stupid and he either had to keep using his battery or use whatever their idea was or he was wrong. Even though he wasn't wrong he was just different from each of their own ideas which had their own flaws that might have worked on their bike but it was theirs it was his and they didn't know anything about it or what was driving his decision to change all they knew is that it wasn't how they did it so he was wrong and must follow their recommendations or remain wrong. How about just let people do what they want and instead go start their own threads to lecture people or show people how well they can do basic repairs and leave other people's threads to them. Then if people have the info someone requires and feel like helping then they can offer that instead. Don't assume you know everything and jump to conclusions about people's ability and their bike's condition or situation and use someones thread as an opportunity to get off topic and prove how much more you know about everything and they know nothing by belittling their ideas and projects as if wrong or worthless.

In real life there is honestly nothing more annoying than having to listen to "that guy", the one who without even really having all the facts or knows what is going on jumps at the opportunity to attempt to sound smarter than everyone by lecturing people about anything and everything whether relevant or not just to hear themselves speak. So don't don't be that guy and do it in the forums. Give people the benefit of the doubt maybe they do know what they are doing and their reason for doing what they are doing is valid. Just because you don't have the answer to their question just move on don't feel the need to feed your ego by trying to treat them as if they are the one's who don't understand the situation.


If you don't want differing opinions don't ask questions on an open forum.

You say that the bike has skimmed head and high compression. It's normal for the starter circuit to struggle with this due to the higher compression & vacuum forces. From my landspeed racing days I can tell you that many of the guys running high compression all-motor bikes used two batteries, just as I suggested. 12v for the electrics, 24v for the starter - it's simple and it just works. Even moderately increased compression required cranking with the throttle open to reduce the load on the starter.
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P.
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, within a few days its gone from;

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55118459/excuse-me-i-have-a-question.jpg

to

https://www.doublz.com/images/pureBeef.png

Listen to Pete, Pete knows.
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Symptom: Starter Motor Slippage (XV-920, XV-1000, XV-1100)


The starter clutch located inside the left side cover is the worn part. It is designed to protect the engine from backfiring, when starting. This part eventually wears out and is relatively easy to replace. However, if you are not mechanically inclined, do not attempt this repair. Adding three shims, part number 156-11563-00, in the starter nose will take up any wear caused by prolonged use while this symptom existed.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOKES wrote:
I never said the bike was an old gummed up beater, with burnt up starter, bad wiring... In reality I actually said the bike has been restored into a cafe cruiser where as the motor has milled heads and extremely high compression compared to stock along with a new starter, a new higher cca than stock battery, new electrical etc.

In reality all you really said was,
Quote:
We are converting... (a 35 year old bike into a cafe racer and it struggles to turn over.)

The usual starting point is the aforementioned gummed-up old beater.
Rated 'Interesting, though, so hopefully someone on the forum can bring the project to its fiery conclusion (joking! Thinking) by answering the specific question.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just trying to conceive how you can 'restore' (return to original condition) a bike being 'converted' (to something other than original specification!)...

Whilst having day-mares of shitting frog geek-nick creations, intermingle with PTSD flash-backs to trying to start a 14:1 C/R Yoshimura 500/4 (genuine) 'racer' by various means; the most frightening being parking a 7.5 Ton Commer van on some scrap ware-house roller-tracking...... As some sort of improvises drag roller!..... pointing precariously at the fishing lake at Mallory!!!!!!!! Shocked

But hey! Chap obviously knows better than us what he's doing, and its his project.
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capacitors won’t give you amps, I.e. help turn a recalcitrant engine over.
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colink98
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PostPosted: 09:20 - 02 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
From my landspeed racing days.


/ thread
any post.... ever.
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janner_10
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 02 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

INB4 much shouty anger and

https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/jetbt70/scarletflounceaward.jpg
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 12:49 - 03 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remove the whole starter circuit and all componants to do with it. Take the bike in a van. Start it on rollers.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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hmmmnz
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 03 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

im going to put my ore in just because im a spark,

bigger battery, bigger cables.
you'd be surprised how much voltage you drop under cranking conditions,

you say you have high comp heads then you'll be putting more strain on the starter, drawing more current, and making the stock cables even further under sized.

failing that, more voltage = less amps
24v starting circuit as pete. has said
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 03 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not reading every tedious word but it sounds like you want to increase compression, cheap out on or use a form over function battery and expect a magic capacitor to shove the lump over the stiff bits.

Where I wonder does this magic capacitor get it's energy?
the phantom zone?
In this universe you don't get owt for nowt
I'd look for a simpler, more practical solution to get a tarted up Viagra to turn over.
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dydey90
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:29 - 04 Jan 2018    Post subject: Re: Bike capacitors to add some extra kick to large motors. Reply with quote

NOKES wrote:
180,000 microfarads or 180 farads


Since you know everything, you’ll know that all your calculations are out by a factor of 10^3 then.

180,000µF is 180mF or 0.18F.
µ (Micro) is 0.000001
m (milli) is 0.001
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Past: CBR125,ER6f NINJA 650, ZZR600 Current: VFR750
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YBR Ric
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: 13:22 - 05 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

some useless info...

Many old Brit bikes used the 2MC Capacitor to aid flat battery starting or even to replace the battery itself. Here's its modern replacement, a 10,000µF 63VDC version


https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/buy/2mc-capacitor_1864.htm
.
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