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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: RFID & credit cards Reply with quote

How risky is it that you can be scanned while credit cards are in your wallet/phone case and should you use these RFID blocking pouches or cards.

Is it all another thing blown all out of proportion?

Mrs asked me and TBH I haven't a clue. If you go on line you get everything from, no, it's not a risk to Oh my god, you are going to die. Shocked

Any insight and if it is a risk, what's the best way to combat it.

Cheers. Thumbs Up
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 09:42 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible.

I don't know anybody who has had it happen first hand.

The bank will probably pick it up before you do if it happens. The money would be refunded.

The possibility doesn't bother me at all.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:
It's possible.

I don't know anybody who has had it happen first hand.

The bank will probably pick it up before you do if it happens. The money would be refunded.

The possibility doesn't bother me at all.


This.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:20 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:
It's possible.

I don't know anybody who has had it happen first hand.

The bank will probably pick it up before you do if it happens. The money would be refunded.

The possibility doesn't bother me at all.


This pretty much.

Only ever heard urban myths of it happening.

They'd have to press the card reader very close to you as well. The actual distance contact less works is less than 10mm. (I can do it through my wallet on the side the card is, but not the other usually).

I wouldn't worry about tin foil wallets or whatever. Also no problem on a credit card as you just say it wasn't you and your card provider should do a charge back.
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piazza
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's probably about as likely as being victim to a pickpocket. My butcher tells me he picked up a reader to bill a customer and it read the card from across the counter.
A faraday wallet would negate the risk, if such a thing existed to prevent pickpockets would you have it?!
I probably read too much Cory Doctorow tho Razz
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

piazza wrote:
It's probably about as likely as being victim to a pickpocket. My butcher tells me he picked up a reader to bill a customer and it read the card from across the counter.
A faraday wallet would negate the risk, if such a thing existed to prevent pickpockets would you have it?!
I probably read too much Cory Doctorow tho Razz


My wallet is on a chain, always has been since I was a baby biker so yes, I do have a thing to prevent pickpockets. Laughing
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got my three cards in the same compartment in my wallet; if it's close enough to excite the coil I'd imagine the resulting signal would be muddy.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have my work pass in my wallet which seems to override all other RFID cards. Similarly, my work pass doesn't work when next to my debit card for example. If you just have one contactless card, I can see it being a risk, but if you have multiple I think it will be OK.

As others have said, I've heard urban myths, but it's never concerned me that much.
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kippyzona
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a batch of wallets that said they were RFID protected ,they weren't.
If you do buy a wallet make sure it works.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:04 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could happen but you're much more likely to get your card details taken by a card terminal that's be tampered with or skimmed at a cash machine.

Oh yeah, you could also be smacked over the head by someone wanting to steal your wallet.


Razz
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Last edited by smegballs on 21:35 - 17 May 2021; edited 1 time in total
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an article from 2013 which claims that its possible to read them at 45-80cm away.

Even at that range, that's still close enough to be bordering on invading someones personal space. Then you've got the issue of multiple signals coming from other cards/devices.

The biggest danger I can see with contactless cards, are if you loose them or the get stolen.

Your more likely to have your card details stolen shopping online or via one of many cash machine blags, then have someone remotely take a contactless payment in the street
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
There's an article from 2013 which claims that its possible to read them at 45-80cm away.

Even at that range, that's still close enough to be bordering on invading someones personal space. Then you've got the issue of multiple signals coming from other cards/devices.

If that were possible then rush hour on the London Underground would be a perfect opportunity to harvest card details.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres the article in the Journal of Engineering - https://digital-library.theiet.org/content/journals/10.1049/joe.2013.0087;jsessionid=3bggvbgimjqg9.x-iet-live-01

Abstract wrote:
This paper presents an assessment of how successful an eavesdropping attack on a contactless payment transaction can be in terms of bit and frame error rates, using an easily concealable antenna and low-cost electronics. Potential success of an eavesdropping attack largely depends on the correct recovery of the data frames used in the ISO 14443 standard. A near-field communication inductive loop antenna was used to emulate an ISO 14443 transmission. For eavesdropping, an identical inductive loop antenna as well as a shopping trolley modified to act like an antenna were used. The authors present and analyse frame error rates obtained with the authors equipment over a range of distances, up to 100 cm, well above the official maximum operating distance depending on the magnetic field strength.


ste wrote:
London Underground would be a perfect opportunity to harvest card details.


I imagine there would be issues with multiple cards been read at once, my door pass at work wont work if its next to another RFID card
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Ste pointed out, the ideal place would be someone to be 'bumping' into people on public transport. I can read my card through my wallet, but when there are several cards (all contactless) in the same pouch, as I keep them, they seem to interfere with the reading.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

smegballs wrote:
I just cut the corner off my card with scissors, just trimming off enough to cut the RFID antenna and make it non-contactless.

I believe stinkwheel did the same? Using the X-ray at work to locate the antenna wires and drill a hole to disable it.

Isn't technology wonderful Smile I'm staying contactless-less.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all very well that the banks would reimburse a fraudulent loss, but that most likely presupposes that the customer identifies said loss. We're all being pushed towards cashlessness these days, and using our contactless cards all over the place for even small transactions - often even without receipts being issues I find - and many would find it pretty hard to be 100% sure which of a long list of £0-30 transactions were definitely legit. That's what I don't like about contactless.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:15 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
It's all very well that the banks would reimburse a fraudulent loss

AFAIK it's up to you to prove it was fraudulent. It's one of the reasons I try to use cash. However I had my card frozen (by the bank) once when someone in Malaysia tried to buy a book with my details Confused, it was straight forward to sort out.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
It's all very well that the banks would reimburse a fraudulent loss

AFAIK it's up to you to prove it was fraudulent.


you say that, in practise it would seem you just have to tell your bank it wasn't you. The bank then does a charge back from the retailer and even if the retailer can show it was the customer and it's been delivered even then it's still not enough. It seems very easy to just do a charge back on credit cards.

Paypal IME is a fairer system for all involved. I.e. people that are trying to pull your pants down are told where to go.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:34 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Attach device to a shopping trolleys as an aerial.

Let other people collect card details by walking the trolleys around in Tescos.

???

Profit.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Attach device to a shopping trolleys as an aerial.

Let other people collect card details by walking the trolleys around in Tescos.

???

Profit.


Only £29.99 a time.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
It seems very easy to just do a charge back on credit cards.

It is. It isn't so easy for debit cards.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
It seems very easy to just do a charge back on credit cards.

It is. It isn't so easy for debit cards.


Aaaa, ok. I thought we were only talking about credit cards as per the title. Thumbs Up You're quite right. Debit cards are a little different.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 30 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't contactless for both credit and debit cards? I don't really see the hardship in entering a pin, but I can see the use on London transport. The problem with oyster cards is you never know how much money you've got on them, I have a bit of tape stuck to it with the amount written down (very 21st century) Confused
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 31 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Isn't contactless for both credit and debit cards? I don't really see the hardship in entering a pin, but I can see the use on London transport. The problem with oyster cards is you never know how much money you've got on them, I have a bit of tape stuck to it with the amount written down (very 21st century) Confused


I'm not sure to be fair. I only have a contactless debit card. Can't you use your contact card directly on the Oyster readers now?
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