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skyehigh
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 09 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Radiator Fan Reply with quote
Hi
Had my FZ750 running in the shed yesterday and when the fan kicked in I thought excellent everything OK - but when I switched off the ignition the fan stopped. I had to turn on the ignition again to run the fan till the engine cooled down sufficiently to cut the fan. I would have thought the fan should keep running even with the ignition off (as my car does), Is it a wiring issue? Any thoughts gratefully received
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can't give you a definitive answer but on one of my bikes the fan keeps running with the ignition off and the other bike which is 10 years older the fan switches off when I turn off the ignition.

I wouldn't worry about it unless you notice puddles, and even then it's unlikely to cause any issues.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 22:34 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've just gone through the wiring diagram and the fan is connected to the thermo switch, which is connected via the fuse box, which is powered via the ignition switch. It should, therefore, turn off with the ignition.

This is a wiring diagram for an '85 but I found no real difference between this and my 1990 (before it was stolen!). The only differences are the american versions have running lights and the switch to a single pickup coil.


https://i.imgur.com/agaQwhx.jpg
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Re: Radiator Fan Reply with quote
skyehigh wrote:
Hi
Had my FZ750 running in the shed yesterday and when the fan kicked in I thought excellent everything OK - but when I switched off the ignition the fan stopped. I had to turn on the ignition again to run the fan till the engine cooled down sufficiently to cut the fan. I would have thought the fan should keep running even with the ignition off (as my car does), Is it a wiring issue? Any thoughts gratefully received


The thermo switch for the fan is on the radiator header tank usually so all you've really done is run the fan until the radiator has cooled down. It'll have no effect on the engine temperature aside from some small thermosyphon effect moving coolant around.

Just turn the engine off and forget about it.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 00:23 - 06 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
When you kill the ignition it puts the fire out.
No fire no steam.
Not a problem as the engine cooling pump is mechanically driven off the engine so not much it being cooled when the fan runs on.
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Bikeless
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 06 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
As Pete says, there's no point in the fan running if the water isn't being pumped around the engine, it would not be cooling anything except the rad.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 06 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Look at older cars. The fan was powered by the same belt that ran the alternator and waterpump. There wasn't a problem with the engine overheating when it was stopped after a run.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 22:09 - 06 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Look at older cars. The fan was powered by the same belt that ran the alternator and waterpump. There wasn't a problem with the engine overheating when it was stopped after a run.


True story:

When the Escort RS Turbo was a brand new model my dad worked at a large Ford dealership doing quality control. A customer kept boiling his new car over by thrashing it up the motorway then pulling up on his drive (he lived just off the exit). My dad was sent to look at it and he went for a terrifying test drive with the owner at the wheel then saw what the problem was - he was parking the car up red hot and it then boiled over. Back at the dealership he suggested that the fan be wired in to a permanent live instead of a switched live. They did that and it cured the problem.

Months later the dealership manager got a mention in the internal magazine, plus a cash bonus, for putting forward his idea on 'curing' the problem.
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skyehigh
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 06 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks everyone - puts my mind at rest!
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 06 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:


True story:

When the Escort RS Turbo was a brand new model my dad worked at a large Ford dealership doing quality control. A customer kept boiling his new car over by thrashing it up the motorway then pulling up on his drive (he lived just off the exit). My dad was sent to look at it and he went for a terrifying test drive with the owner at the wheel then saw what the problem was - he was parking the car up red hot and it then boiled over. Back at the dealership he suggested that the fan be wired in to a permanent live instead of a switched live. They did that and it cured the problem.

Months later the dealership manager got a mention in the internal magazine, plus a cash bonus, for putting forward his idea on 'curing' the problem.


I'd imagine the turbo would still have been fully spooled up too when he killed the ignition. I seem to recall it being important to leave turbos of that era to idle for a bit before turning off?
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MCN
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PostPosted: 00:56 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Pete. wrote:


True story:

When the Escort RS Turbo was a brand new model my dad worked at a large Ford dealership doing quality control. A customer kept boiling his new car over by thrashing it up the motorway then pulling up on his drive (he lived just off the exit). My dad was sent to look at it and he went for a terrifying test drive with the owner at the wheel then saw what the problem was - he was parking the car up red hot and it then boiled over. Back at the dealership he suggested that the fan be wired in to a permanent live instead of a switched live. They did that and it cured the problem.

Months later the dealership manager got a mention in the internal magazine, plus a cash bonus, for putting forward his idea on 'curing' the problem.


I'd imagine the turbo would still have been fully spooled up too when he killed the ignition. I seem to recall it being important to leave turbos of that era to idle for a bit before turning off?


The shut down procedure is the same with all turbo engines.

The turbo can still be spinning like a hoowur at 20,000 RPMs when the engine stops.
Oil pressure drops to zero before the turbo rests.

Repeated short shut downs will mean the turbo shaft runs un-lubricated for a few seconds/minutes.

It is good practice to let the engine idle for a few seconds before shutting off.

A full load run then cutting the power is careless and should not be regular practice for any engine.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:

The shut down procedure is the same with all turbo engines.

The turbo can still be spinning like a hoowur at 20,000 RPMs when the engine stops.
Oil pressure drops to zero before the turbo rests.

Repeated short shut downs will mean the turbo shaft runs un-lubricated for a few seconds/minutes.

It is good practice to let the engine idle for a few seconds before shutting off.

A full load run then cutting the power is careless and should not be regular practice for any engine.


Modern turbos are rotating in excess of 100,000 rpm. They're now oil and water cooled and modern fully synthetic oils are more tolerant, so the old fashioned turbo timers and warm down procedures are no longer so relevant.

Modern cars also tend to be rented, and those types of owners don't generally give any thought to the mechanicals.

That said I do take the last 1\2 mile home a bit easier, as I own my vehicle, it's not leased so I have a long term interest in reliability.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
MCN wrote:

The shut down procedure is the same with all turbo engines.

The turbo can still be spinning like a hoowur at 20,000 RPMs when the engine stops.
Oil pressure drops to zero before the turbo rests.

Repeated short shut downs will mean the turbo shaft runs un-lubricated for a few seconds/minutes.

It is good practice to let the engine idle for a few seconds before shutting off.

A full load run then cutting the power is careless and should not be regular practice for any engine.


Modern turbos are rotating in excess of 100,000 rpm. They're now oil and water cooled and modern fully synthetic oils are more tolerant, so the old fashioned turbo timers and warm down procedures are no longer so relevant.

Modern cars also tend to be rented, and those types of owners don't generally give any thought to the mechanicals.

That said I do take the last 1\2 mile home a bit easier, as I own my vehicle, it's not leased so I have a long term interest in reliability.


They'll no be doing 200000 RPMs at idle. Smile

Probably under full load, aye.

Don't trust modern oils. The thing doesn't know it is protected by technology.
It is good practice to let 'any' machine run-down before shut-down.

And it sounds careless to just bang it off too. Mad
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm wary of the long lifetime claims modern oils are asserting, granted they're testing it but 20,000 miles between changes is on the limit.

Cheap accredited fully synth changed at 4,000 is cheaper and would still have another 6,000 left if I went by the book, but oil is cheaper than an engine so I keep 4,000 intervals.

I had an S1 RST. Looking at the prices of old fast fords, wish I still had it.
It felt quick back then, on paper these days it's just a mildly warm hatch.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
I'm wary of the long lifetime claims modern oils are asserting, granted they're testing it but 20,000 miles between changes is on the limit.

Cheap accredited fully synth changed at 4,000 is cheaper and would still have another 6,000 left if I went by the book, but oil is cheaper than an engine so I keep 4,000 intervals.

I had an S1 RST. Looking at the prices of old fast fords, wish I still had it.
It felt quick back then, on paper these days it's just a mildly warm hatch.


I change the oil about 1k miles after I can't see it on the dipstick or sight glass.

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MCN
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
I'm wary of the long lifetime claims modern oils are asserting, granted they're testing it but 20,000 miles between changes is on the limit.

Cheap accredited fully synth changed at 4,000 is cheaper and would still have another 6,000 left if I went by the book, but oil is cheaper than an engine so I keep 4,000 intervals.

I had an S1 RST. Looking at the prices of old fast fords, wish I still had it.
It felt quick back then, on paper these days it's just a mildly warm hatch.


I'm guessing most modern vehicles are like my T5 VW and have 2 configurations of service interval, one shorter interval for people who want to run the engine for years to come and an extended mileage one for fleet firms who don't give a shit about it once it gets to 3 years and 99,000 miles.

Long service intervals are designed to keep servicing costs down for fleet and lease firms in a 3 year period, they don't do the engines much good for people wanting to make them last though.

I configured mine for the shorter intervals but still use the correct long life oil.


There are too many varifocals to determine what is best just like that.

Generally, fleet cars/vehicles do a lot of motorway miles. The mileage is therefore accumulated under more or less 'even-loading' which is good.

A lot of big companies use dealer servicing or proper service agents to carry out servicing. Ease of accounting and control of work (to some degree) It is in their interest to ensure the vehicles are reliable.
Most fleet cars you see at auction are generally in great condition. Three year old vehicles with high mileage is not a problem. You get wot you pay for.

The worst condition for an engine is stop start, load on load off (and/or not enough load.)


Modern oil blends do last longer i.e. stay in grade and buffer the chemicals which can accelerate engine wear better.
The additive package is what you pay for in the posher synthetic blends.
Bigger sump capacity allow there to be more oil so more additive and oil to wear longer.

My BMW has a 20K service interval but OEM demands a fully synthetic oil (Mobil or someone but any oil that matches the OEM spec is suitable).

I do not believe servicing before the recommended interval is a saving. It is just doing something that does not really need to be done yet. And you also introduce risk of damaging something in the process.
Let the miles run up to the recommended interval and service then. There is a massive margin built into those intervals the OEM err on caution just to be safe.

Use good oil of the correct grade and stay in your bed longer.

We use a system on big Diesels to reduce oil changing to a minimum.

Only Engine filters are changed at OEM intervals but oil is maintained. An additional filter system and time release additive package supports these extreme oil change intervals. Backed up by in-house Oil Analysis. (US$100 000s saved every month.)
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MCN
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 09 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
MCN wrote:

There are too many varifocals to determine what is best just like that.

Generally, fleet cars/vehicles do a lot of motorway miles. The mileage is therefore accumulated under more or less 'even-loading' which is good.

A lot of big companies use dealer servicing or proper service agents to carry out servicing. Ease of accounting and control of work (to some degree) It is in their interest to ensure the vehicles are reliable.
Most fleet cars you see at auction are generally in great condition. Three year old vehicles with high mileage is not a problem. You get wot you pay for.

The worst condition for an engine is stop start, load on load off (and/or not enough load.)


Modern oil blends do last longer i.e. stay in grade and buffer the chemicals which can accelerate engine wear better.
The additive package is what you pay for in the posher synthetic blends.
Bigger sump capacity allow there to be more oil so more additive and oil to wear longer.

My BMW has a 20K service interval but OEM demands a fully synthetic oil (Mobil or someone but any oil that matches the OEM spec is suitable).

I do not believe servicing before the recommended interval is a saving. It is just doing something that does not really need to be done yet. And you also introduce risk of damaging something in the process.
Let the miles run up to the recommended interval and service then. There is a massive margin built into those intervals the OEM err on caution just to be safe.

Use good oil of the correct grade and stay in your bed longer.

We use a system on big Diesels to reduce oil changing to a minimum.

Only Engine filters are changed at OEM intervals but oil is maintained. An additional filter system and time release additive package supports these extreme oil change intervals. Backed up by in-house Oil Analysis. (US$100 000s saved every month.)


I don't agree. No matter how good the oil is, or how many motorway journeys you do, 20,000 miles as opposed to around 10,000 will not be beneficial for anyone but the firm paying the service costs.

It's purely a sales pitch to sell more vehicles to fleet management and lease firms, who know that it will cost almost half as much to keep the service history complete before flogging it on.

I bought my T5 from a fleet hire firm who rent out loads of T5 Shuttles. They have their own VW mechanics and workshop to do the servicing. Mine had 3 services by the time I bought it at 48,000 miles and 3 years old. Luckily, all the sales guys were busy when I turned up, so one of the mechanics took me out for a test drive. He spends all day servicing T5's with the 2.0TDI engines in various states of power output and made a big point on explaining that the long term service was not good for the engines.

There is a certain VW engine, the BiTurbo 180PS 2.0 TDI, which even though VW won't admit it, often fails within 50,000 miles on the long service interval plan. On the short plan, they don't suffer the same issue. It's all down to the EGR cooler putting small amounts of aluminium into the oil and wearing the bore. Leave the contaminated oil in for 20,000 miles and the wear drastically increases.


Well I have an auld BMW 140k on it, serviced every 20k. Purrs ahp an dahn the roads. Still gets 43-47MPG 500+ mile tank range, starts 1st turn, not even a puff smoke, no tippity tappity or clickity clackity and still goes like shite off a shiny shovel.
It has a 6l sump and uses synthetic oil. So something must be doing it right.

But not every engine is a BMW or Audi engine. Cool
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iooi
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 09 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
most enthusiasts choose the lower interval, you have to ask yourself why.


This is where the saying *" A fool and his money are easily parted" comes in Laughing

Do you think that oil & car manufactures are going to push the limits passed the safe point.
Not a chance at the risk of having to pay out big time...

Never get why people are still changing oil, at the same mileage they did 20 years ago. When the quality of oil and the build tolerances of cars are so much better.

Refer to *quote above
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 09:17 - 10 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
Never get why people are still changing oil, at the same mileage they did 20 years ago. When the quality of oil and the build tolerances of cars are so much better.


Because as oils have improved the power from any particular cc has also increased thus putting more wear on the oil. In fact power has only been able to be increased as oils were able to handle the increased strain. I believe this is a kind of symbiosis.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 10 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


I ran my last BMW E34 to 275K and drove it onto the scrap lorry, my current E38 is over 200K already. Mind you, I don't wait 20,000 miles to remove the contaminated oil.

Each to their own, but if your car has 2 settings within BMW's INPA software and most enthusiasts choose the lower interval, you have to ask yourself why.
There is no question that oil will pick up contaminates and no question that leaving them in contact with the engine internals for twice as long, will cause twice the wear.


Read up on modern engine design and lubricant.

Synthetic multigrade oil stays 'in-grade' much longer than 'traditional' oils do.

Modern Diesel fuels 'refined in the West' contain less sulphur than previously.

The reasons oil is changed is to restore the oils mechanical properties and it chemical composition.

There is not a Setting to determine when the oil is changed in my car. It says in the owners hand book and by the service computer.

Are you the type who will change oil when 'it looks black'? 😊
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